Do we really need PvP?

[rushin]

if you don’t want to be involved in PvP (aka fighting over an outpost) then why would you be in a guild that pursues this?

[sofiaoak]

You would run and hide instead of supporting your guild? After all, your dappers from digging/crafting/whatever you do for dappers is going into the effort to build/maintain/defend the outpost. You would not even go and heal...show up for moral support to those who would defend what they invested time/dappers into?

And how it's better force people to playing styles they don't wanna?

if you don’t want to be involved in PvP (aka fighting over an outpost) then why would you be in a guild that pursues this?

Guild is not pursues anyting, outposts are just one more possibility do for guilds. I can't affect how other members on guild decide, about outposts. I can only say my opinion about it.

PS: As for my guild, they did know the situation from start when I joined the guild.

[troll16]

Many of us come from come that have open PvP as a primary feature.
Most of the striden opponents of increased PvP in SoR have seen first hand the effects of Open PvP in MMOs.

We do not need "common misconceptions" dispelled. We *know* the reality of it.

We are "very confident in the feeling that PvP will ruin this game" because we have seen what is has done to every other game that has it. We were sick of it there, and that is why we are in Atys.

We know that griefers and gankers abound in a PvP environment. Even the 'good guys' make alts and get in on it, sometimes out of pure frustration. Although in SoR, idiot, childish players are the exception; it takes very few of them to ruin the game for the rest of us.

We do not want SoR to be like every other game. Its uniqueness is what keeps us here. If the game degrades to where the gank-kids start moving in, many of us will simply move on, and let them have it.

There are other games in the world. Some of them might even get the pronouns straight

On the whole well said!



I suppose my biggest concern here like many is the impact on the community.

The Jewel of this game is the community and in the rush to try and make it a more main stream game that jewel will start to become fragmented and over time the community here will be no different to any other game.

It's not fully intergrated yet and it is already having an impact.



The reason I play WoW is for full PvP, without PvP I would not even bother to play it. The community there is fragmented, I've teamed with good players but on the whole quite a few selfish players only interested in what they can get out of it. One player left me in a cave with mobs 5 levels higher than me because he got what he wanted and left team. And this kind of behaviour in WoW from my experiences there, are common.

[kwhopper]

You mean to tell me you wouldn't even go and heal? How exactly is that a style of play you don't want to partake in? Anyways, not going to try and convince you. You don't want to support your guild, fine by me.

[drizzeth]

Many of us come from come that have open PvP as a primary feature.

We do not want SoR to be like every other game. Its uniqueness is what keeps us here. If the game degrades to where the gank-kids start moving in, many of us will simply move on, and let them have it.

Some of us are playing and testing this game since beta, some of those are waiting for outposts and Kami and Karavan story to finaly start since that beta.

Outposts and that pvp element is part of the game you bought, ofcourse beta testers that are pro outposts could say:"go back where you came from instead of trying to stop the completion of developers promises dating from back in beta!"

But no! The point is we can ALL HAVE OUR GAME AND PLAY IT!

The only deviding of community i see is people just ignoring any real arguments for the pvp and outposts and stick to their blindness made up in OTHER communities.

YES RYZOM COMMUNITY AND GAMEPLAY IS SO DIFFERENT IT WILL NOT ATRACT WHAT YOU FEAR!

There is one group trying to deny anopther group their gameplay while that feared other group is constantly arguing how noone has to fear anytying.
Yes we can all have out own gameplay and not be bothered by the toy of another, amazing isnt it

-An MMO is by no way a TTRPG, they differ fundamentaly
-No single playstyle is the style "thats meant to be" no single playstyle has more right over Atys'development then any other.

Some arguments raised on the Anti-pvp faction are downright doscriminitive and fascistic!
I havent seen that kind of "superior"behaviour on the PvP side.

My whole point is, we are all 1 big group and we can all have our toys and rest assured that nobody is going to ruin anyones fun.

Trust yourselves to make the best out of it

If that fails im gonna vote bring back beta roflol

EDIT: the way this whole thread is going and how well everyone is listening to all the argumets proves me the non-pvp faction will never manage to solve this war by deplomacy roflol.

[grimjim]

But no! The point is we can ALL HAVE OUR GAME AND PLAY IT!

No, you can't, not so long as one is given a trump card (slaughter) over another.

YES RYZOM COMMUNITY AND GAMEPLAY IS SO DIFFERENT IT WILL NOT ATRACT WHAT YOU FEAR!

The community and gameplay is _currently_ different. It will not attract the negative element we fear AT PRESENT. If the game changes, so will its audience and the types of player it attracts and retains.

There is one group trying to deny anopther group their gameplay while that feared other group is constantly arguing how noone has to fear anytying.
Yes we can all have out own gameplay and not be bothered by the toy of another, amazing isnt it

No, you can't, because, and I'll try saying it slowly in BBC english in case that helps it sink in...

One...group...has...the...ability...to...force...what...they...desire...onto...others.

PvP play already exists. The previous poll showed a massive vote against PvP in the maximum way possibly expressed and the overall indication of the vote was that a slight DOWNGRADING of PvP from duels/prime roots/arenas was the most desired course of action.

-An MMO is by no way a TTRPG, they differ fundamentaly
-No single playstyle is the style "thats meant to be" no single playstyle has more right over Atys'development then any other.

On your first point, you are wrong. They do not differ fundamentally. The fundamental difference here is between MMORPGs and FPS games. Something the PvPers don't seem to be able to wrap their brains around. Besides which the comparison is not only between TTRPG and MMOs but other forms of RP game as well which bear closer resemblence to MMOs. We've also heard from people FROM other MMOs who don't want to see the same thing happening.

By and large the anti-PvP lobby is happy for pro-PvP people to slaughter each other willy-nilly all they like. What we object to is being forced to subject ourselves to PvP in order to access content. We do not want something we dislike forced upon us.

I don't mind PvP within the context of events or consensual terms. Content linked PvP is not consensual. Random ganking is not consensual.

I thought this was too obvious to say but the pro PvPers don't seem to be able to see the problems precisely because they LIKE PvP and often do engage with others who like it. Anyone who complains is just a whiner, right? You have to step into the other side's shoes to understand them.

My whole point is, we are all 1 big group and we can all have our toys and rest assured that nobody is going to ruin anyones fun.

And yet people already have spoiled each others fun, even with the currently limited PvP we have. Even without it you get irresponsible ***hats dancing naked in front of guides during events. The more we accomodate those types of people, and that primarily includes increased PvP content - but is not limited to it, the worse things will get.

The only major difference between TTRPGs and MMOs is that MMOs don't have as much quality control over participating players...

[drizzeth]

Something about the feared so-called "gank-kids"

If they would come t Ryzom in those masses you ear pvp areas and mechanics have nothing to do with your fear.

Let me explain:

If someone wants to harass another player, he could blow up a mektoub, train mobs to the victim and use other game mechaics to hurt another player.

This doesnt happen, almost.

Another thing you can look at to forecast ryzom gank kid behavior is the current pvp-open zones. How ogften are you ganked there? have you ever been? i havent i talked my way out of it when someone notorious for pr-killing back in that day was going to kill me, i talked it off..

being a mace to anyone by using pvp? i dont think so, there is no death penalty, surely anyone that want to hurt someone else prefers a mob-train ovwer any pvp battle.

Now ask yourselves: How much did i get thse troubles? Have i ever gotten those troubles? How does it compae to the pvp-hell mmo's we ar coming from?

I think youll see the enormous difference

[drizzeth]

No, you can't, not so long as one is given a trump card (slaughter) over another.



The community and gameplay is _currently_ different. It will not attract the negative element we fear AT PRESENT. If the game changes, so will its audience and the types of player it attracts and retains.



No, you can't, because, and I'll try saying it slowly in BBC english in case that helps it sink in...

One...group...has...the...ability...to...force...what...they...desire...onto...others.

PvP play already exists. The previous poll showed a massive vote against PvP in the maximum way possibly expressed and the overall indication of the vote was that a slight DOWNGRADING of PvP from duels/prime roots/arenas was the most desired course of action.



On your first point, you are wrong. They do not differ fundamentally. The fundamental difference here is between MMORPGs and FPS games. Something the PvPers don't seem to be able to wrap their brains around. Besides which the comparison is not only between TTRPG and MMOs but other forms of RP game as well which bear closer resemblence to MMOs. We've also heard from people FROM other MMOs who don't want to see the same thing happening.

By and large the anti-PvP lobby is happy for pro-PvP people to slaughter each other willy-nilly all they like. What we object to is being forced to subject ourselves to PvP in order to access content. We do not want something we dislike forced upon us.

I don't mind PvP within the context of events or consensual terms. Content linked PvP is not consensual. Random ganking is not consensual.

I thought this was too obvious to say but the pro PvPers don't seem to be able to see the problems precisely because they LIKE PvP and often do engage with others who like it. Anyone who complains is just a whiner, right? You have to step into the other side's shoes to understand them.



And yet people already have spoiled each others fun, even with the currently limited PvP we have. Even without it you get irresponsible ***hats dancing naked in front of guides during events. The more we accomodate those types of people, and that primarily includes increased PvP content - but is not limited to it, the worse things will get.

The only major difference between TTRPGs and MMOs is that MMOs don't have as much quality control over participating players...

Grimjim, yoou really arent willing to getout of your own little corner of opinion and really listen to what others say without dully repeating your unchanging opinion by time and again will you?

This reply of yours doent have anyting new in it, it repeats most of al your llarge reply posts points..

Also thank you very much, i can read english very well and i dont need any 'superior'behaviour from you about BBC english with dots between the words, thank you very much! That air isnt helping this discussion at al, you are creating a negative enviroment about it that way.

Alos note that English is not my native laguage.

also note that one group (non PVP) is exactly doing this:

One...group...has...the...ability...to...force...what...they...desire...onto...others.

While the pro-pvp try to assure that we want to make sutre that nobody is going to ruin anyones game and so we can all have our game and play it.. but this last thing is ignored big time

and a last ting Grimjim, you really should get it into your head that TTRPGS are very very different then MMO's, if you want to play a TTRPG, go and do so, an MMO is not the place for it, you can rollplay in an MMO but you dont crontroll the playergroup and world setting.

David Cohen made up the stopry FOR YOU and is not asking you to make up a story for him!(if you want to look at Ryzom as TTRPG, David Cohen is your Dungeon Master, telling the sotry, controlling YOUR player rollplaying just like a DM controlls the choices of the tabletop players
And i havent even started yet about how well most of the rollplayers rolls fit in with the gamelore, well most of them dont make any sense at all within that gamelore, im not going to elaborate that but i do recall i had my share of laughs about non-lore fitting played roles

I also want to add that i care, not because i think i will be any part of ryzom next year, im sure i wont be, bu because ive sat back to many times being content about changes ad then some forum discussion ruins it and game gets changed to suit a minority of complainers, im not willing to sit back this time i speak up!

[grimjim]

David Cohen made up the stopry FOR YOU and is not asking you to make up a story for him!(if you want to look at Ryzom as TTRPG, David Cohen is your Dungeon Master, telling the sotry, controlling YOUR player rollplaying just like a DM controlls the choices of the tabletop players

I also want to add that i care, not because i think i will be any part of ryzom next year, im sure i wont be, bu because ive sat back to many times being content about changes ad then some forum discussion ruins it and game gets changed to suit a minority of complainers, im not willing to sit back this time i speak up!

An MMO is an interactive story, just like a TTRPG, a LARP or any other form of RP you care to mention.

The most important and engaging factor in that is the INTERACTIVITY.

A good GM, in any context does NOT _tell_ a story. They craft it in cooperation with the players, improvising, changing, adding to their storyline as they go along. GMs also do not control your players or control the choices of the players in their game. They can gently steer, they can interpret the results of those actions but they do not dictate.

The type of GM you describe would be a very, very poor GM indeed.

As to your last point, the pro PvP lobby is the one in the minority but are very loud and strident and seem to have been getting their way largely up to this point. I'm rather glad that the anti lobby is getting more strident and louder in response and I hope their concerns are addressed or more thought is given as a result.

[drizzeth]

The type of GM you describe would be a very, very poor GM indeed.

Im not describing a GM, im talking more global, less detail:

In the TTRPG as you like to see it thats called Ryzom, David Cohen made up the world setting for you and the global storyline and political intrigues.

You are a mere player in this game, not a DM, you play a role that fits into the grandmasters(David Cohen) global story and worldsetting including political intrigues. David Cohen has the story of Kami and Karavan from since i know Ryzom, this conflict is a big part of that story, you are behaving like a TTRPG player that denies his DM, we all know how TTRPG world thinks about players that always need to discuss things with the DM instead of accepting his athority given by his role as DM.

As to your last point, the pro PvP lobby is the one in the minority but are very loud and strident and seem to have been getting their way largely up to this point. I'm rather glad that the anti lobby is getting more strident and louder in response and I hope their concerns are addressed or more thought is given as a result.

I keep saying that the forum active base of the complete ryzom communiy is the minority of players.

When you start thinking about all the accounts inactive waiting to be activated at outposts..then its ven more so a minority thats speaking on the forums, this has always been lke that, hence you have a very close-knit forum-clique that defends every silly opinion of their forum friends and dont want to let anyone else into that close-knit-clique.

that close-knit-clique isnt at al representing the complete game community.

PS; appologies for the "superior"behavior about BBC english accepted