Outposts Outlined

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wepps
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Re: Outposts Outlined

Post by wepps »

grimjim wrote:
Exploits are what we in the TTRPG world would call 'metagaming', or playing the system rather than the role, using knowledge and choices that your character doesn't have or know in order to be more effective.

This is a bad thing (TM) and another argument against PvP.
Ah but the problem that has always existed is the fact that exploiting IS tactics...outside the game. If one were to implement a wider variety of choices in tactics, simply not calling 'exploits' by that name anymore is one method. Of course, there is balance to consider.

If you were to design that portion of the game AROUND the potential exploits and allow them, then they are no longer exploits, but tactics. It's a fine line.

As a developer, it's easy to say, "we overlooked this, and therefore it's an exploit." In my opinion, this is the wrong attitude. It's a game, it's supposed to be fun, and allowing these kinds of actions, even promoting them, allows a much greater variety of choices in the game play.

Everquest was different. A given character had SO MANY things that he or she could do in the form of spells, skills, and whatnot at any level, that over the couse of character development the balances went away just by addressing the final power of a given class. As long as it was geared towards their purpose, most of the potential imbalances went away just by the vast nature of abilities over 50-65 levels.

With each passing MMO, developers have been more and more attempting to limit the problems of balance and exploitation by further and further limiting the abilities of the classes.

As a result, though, the potential choices go away as you pursue development from this perspective, and that's why I always argue for a wide-open, anything goes system of play.

In an RPG, there are potential exploits. In an MMO, there are potential content possibilities in the form of exploits.

But truthfully, in a truly massive and interactive world, exploits technically should never exist. Instead, it should be developed with those in mind, and encourage them as they can easily be considered a content multiplier.

If a player has a wide variety of choices, the existing content they may utilize through those choices is enough. In other words, what they can DO is content as well. If the player, in their character, is totally limited in choices, then you have no choice but to apply massive content in other forms, usually in a new cave to explore, and new item drops.

I prefer the former for matters of good gameplay philosophy.
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dc77066
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Re: Outposts Outlined

Post by dc77066 »

sofiaoak wrote:So if I understant this correctly.

If I don't wanna be part of this outpost wars, but don't wanna quit my guild because it. I can just stay my own appartment during both attack and defence periods?
[Off topic]

Good thing I just got cable hooked up in mine! Sofi, come on over!

[/off topic]

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dc77066
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Re: Outposts Outlined

Post by dc77066 »

wepps wrote:Ah but the problem that has always existed is the fact that exploiting IS tactics...
Someone more famous than I once said "sometimes an exploit is just an exploit."

Maybe I didn't understand the logic... If society caters to the criminal element they wouldn't bother being criminals?? We have criminals because someone made something illegal?? If there isn't a law against it then it must be okay, despite any moral or ethical complications??

Oh yeah, we were talking about Outposts. Yay! Outposts! Can't wait. Keep up the good work devs and keep the details coming!

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svayvti
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Re: Outposts Outlined

Post by svayvti »

Can the devs tell us why PvP outposts and not the original guild mission / dynamic invasion outposts?

What do the devs think of the various PvP arguments going on in the other forums?

What happened to the original vision of outposts and what of that might we expect to see someday?
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sk8rss
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Re: Outposts Outlined

Post by sk8rss »

I say bravo. Nowhere does it say that this simplified version of outposts won't expand later in development. I'm VERY excited to see that they're coming!
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wepps
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Re: Outposts Outlined

Post by wepps »

dc77066 wrote:Someone more famous than I once said "sometimes an exploit is just an exploit."
And this is true there are times, but only if the game play is not designed around it.
Maybe I didn't understand the logic... If society caters to the criminal element they wouldn't bother being criminals?? We have criminals because someone made something illegal?? If there isn't a law against it then it must be okay, despite any moral or ethical complications??
Let's be realistic here. This is not society, this is not conforming to a set of rules we agree upon.

This is war. In war, there are no rules, and THAT is why combat is the centerpiece of any MMO. Without the conflict, there is no game.
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aylwyne
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Re: Outposts Outlined

Post by aylwyne »

wepps wrote:Let's be realistic here. This is not society, this is not conforming to a set of rules we agree upon.
The griefer motto! j/k

I do think that this type of attitude is the cause of many of the harsh feelings that people develop and that come out especially with PvP. It's very easy to detatch the avatars you see around you from the people behind them and thus act in a way that you wouldn't to a person.

I've often heard people say that you shouldn't take things personally but that's just not how us human beings tend to work. We personify everything. We name our cars. We call ships ‘she’. We have pet rocks. We personify. It’s not a surprise that when presented with an avatar that looks quite human, that shows emotion, and that we designed to look just how we like, this tendency to personify and invest our emotion is even greater. Expecting people to detach from this just isn’t realistic.
wepps wrote:This is war. In war, there are no rules, and THAT is why combat is the centerpiece of any MMO. Without the conflict, there is no game.
No rules of war? In most societies through history there have been rules of war (don't target officers, messengers and diplomats strictly off-limits, etc.). Today, there's certainly rules and laws governing warfare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_war). It's not surprising that the community wants to see some structure and rule behind the PvP system and not just have open anarchy.
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wepps
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Re: Outposts Outlined

Post by wepps »

aylwyne wrote:The griefer motto! j/k

I do think that this type of attitude is the cause of many of the harsh feelings that people develop and that come out especially with PvP. It's very easy to detatch the avatars you see around you from the people behind them and thus act in a way that you wouldn't to a person.

I've often heard people say that you shouldn't take things personally but that's just not how us human beings tend to work. We personify everything. We name our cars. We call ships ‘she’. We have pet rocks. We personify. It’s not a surprise that when presented with an avatar that looks quite human, that shows emotion, and that we designed to look just how we like, this tendency to personify and invest our emotion is even greater. Expecting people to detach from this just isn’t realistic.



No rules of war? In most societies through history there have been rules of war (don't target officers, messengers and diplomats strictly off-limits, etc.). Today, there's certainly rules and laws governing warfare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_war). It's not surprising that the community wants to see some structure and rule behind the PvP system and not just have open anarchy.
Society's written laws of war are nice and all, but they are mostly the evolved sensibilities of western thinking. Often, our enemies choose not to adhere to them. Do we declare them exploiters and ban them from play?


Essentially we do, yes, assuming we win the war :)

But that aside, simply choosing to further limit the abilities of a force of players to defend themselves is not a tried and true method of game design. In fact, I count it a major failure in development thinking, regardless of what the industry experts like to spout in September in Austin.

PvE and PvP play, if limited, allows for only a set few actions a player can take. In other words, there is no real thinking involved. You have 6 things to choose from, press the right button.

There is no possible method of accurately recreating a leadership atmosphere in PvP, for example, if there is nothing for you to do but click the button and order the troops to attack, or root somebody yourself. It's boring. There are no options.

Let me provide a couple well-known scenarios and see how they fly:

Prior to world war two, Heinz Guderian developed a method of fast, slashing attacks using concentrated armor forces in combined arms offensives with infantry and air forces to achieve breakthroughs that could then be exploited. Later, the allies named this new mobile warfare, Blitzkrieg. What he was doing was exploiting several things...terrain, objective positioning, weather, technolgical superiority, and other more minor considerations, to achieve an objective quickly and destroy enemy communications.

Later, in 1943 in Russia, faced with massive and superior Soviet artillery, the Germans chose instead of defending mountain terrain, to implement what became known as Reverse-Slope Defense. By using these tactics, they denied their presence on the front, observed slope of hilly terrain where they could be targeted by superior artillery. Instead, they hid on the opposite side of the hill and set up interlocking fields of fire, making that defense a lot tougher to break since artillery could no longer be accurately employed. They exploited the terrain to achieve an advantage, or in this case, remove the enemy's advantage.

In Stalingrad, the Russians threw every available man into defense of the pile of rubble. With inferior tactics, inferior training, no air superiority, poor leadership, bad morale, and facing the most powerful army in human history ever assembled to achieve an objective, the Russians successfully defended that rubble from the German onslaught long before Operation Uranus cut off the 6th Armee and killed it.

How? They totally removed the German advantages on several levels. The Germans were not trained or equipped to deal with urban warfare. They were open-field mobile forces, and when caught in city limits, it was only a matter of time and sacrifice. They further took the German superior leadership from them, by sending armies of snipers after their officers, forcing low echelon personnel into the unstable role of commander. Instead of employing massed artillery there, they relied on independent mortar teams that could more accurately target in an urban environment. They exploited the situation and removed the enemy's advantages to achieve the victory.

In Africa, during Montgomery's offensive into Lybia, the Germans were tricked into believing that the British army would be striking in one location by deploying an entire offensively postured army...made up of cardboard trucks and tanks. When Rommel defended against an assault at that location, the British launched an assault from the other and kicked them back to Tunisia as a result. The British exploited German intelligence and their own ability to use these new methods of redirecting the attention of the enemy to achieve the victory.

When the German Me-262 Jet fighters showed up on the scene in 1944, there was a great outpouring of hope in the Luftwaffe and in Germany in general. These new aircraft were fast and powerful, and their allied counterparts could not match that speed and firepower. As a result, it was predicted allied daylight bombing would screech to a halt in a matter of just a few weeks. Instead, the allies turned to chasing those bombers down to their airfields, and shooting them out of the sky as they slowed to land. The result of the deployment of the jet fighters was inevitably a depletion of the German pilot reserves, and a shortening of the war.

Are all these exploits?

Yes. They are.

In the military, though, they are called tactics.
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sofiaoak
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Re: Outposts Outlined

Post by sofiaoak »

Quote from Outposts Explained:
The conflict area is unlimited, the two guilds are in PvP mode everywhere during both attack and defence periods.
Just wondering can outpost to be used as put guild members in PvP situation without they consent or is there still some consent flaging before this happening? I'm just curios as this can split our communities even more. At the moment PvPers and non PvPers can still be in same guilds, but can they be after this?
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Re: Outposts Outlined

Post by mrshad »

wepps wrote: Lots of good history
That woudl be relevant if RL = IG.

But, sadly for some, it doesn't
In real life, simple because we can kill someone doesn't mean that we do.
This is largely because, IRL, once we die, we are dead.
We can not get magical abilities by slaughtering cattle over and over again.
In fact, about all we learn from that is how to butcher faster, which may be a good skill, but it certainly doesn't make an martial artist.
In real life you can not find a 'tactic' that will make money magically appear in your account, or let you teleport aroudn the map. In game we call those thing exploits, because, even if they exist, they are not suposed to, and using them is certianly cheating, not tactics.

My point here is, you can not compare milatry history and the rules of engagement to anything in SoR. They simply do not track on any meaningful level. As informative and well written as your post is, it ultimatly has very little relevence due to the vast differences in subject matter.

Now, I can see how leveraging terrain and and the surrounding fauna in order to get an advantage while attacking enemy fortificaitons could be a valid tactic. I agree with that view point. With all the problems PvP is going to bring us, training aggro into the confict will be the very least of our worries.
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