The difference between an MMO and RPG/tabletop

[drizzeth]

I have always been a fan of Fantasy, legends, myths.
So as soon as i descovered them i loved adventure/rpg and tabletop AD&D games
I think i was about a 9 year old playing text based adventures on my C64, as basic was so simple, i even made 2 text based adventures myself on that C64

Then came Monkey Island and Monkey Island2, Zork (the graphical one), Myst, 7th Guest and AD&D PC game Stone Prophet among other less name worthy games lol.These are both adventure(most of them) and RPG games(Zork and Stone Prophet)

By the time i was playing Stone Prophet i also found out about Advanced Dungeons & Dragons(tabletop) I loved it and so did my friends, we had a sessions at least one day a week and it was great!

After that i tasted Daggerfall and some years later Morrowind, in other words, The Elder Scrolls series. They are brilliant single player RPG games, the best I ever played on a machine. Ofcourse i also played Neverwinter Nights, being based on D&D gamerules and world setting.

I got tired of playing a great game ad then having to uninstall and buy the next generation of that game and start over again, wouldnt it be great to find an RPG that is more a persistant world? Where yo could stay for longer as a single player game, ultimately a virtual world to live a Fantasy/RP double life? To maybe even become an element that matters in that world? To impact events and all that? To be able to do that with your friends?

That made me wish for a good MMORPG, i never played those till Ryzom and after i tasted Ryzom I loved it and went tasting most of the other MMO's out there. Expecting singleplayer content greatness and flavour of backgound stories and al that in a persistant world that evolves through player economy and politics. A world great of lore and mysteries to uncover, a world rich of goals and lives possible.

From playing Ryzom(the game it is in the versions running on the retail server, not what is planned) ad other MMO's ive found that that combination of RPG greatness in flavour and background story and massive content(for a reference to what content is, play Elder Scrolls its all the stuff that hasent got anything to do with leveling all the great and minor detail stuff) and it being a persistant world doesnt really excist. Some how an MMO is annother type of game as a massive multiplayed RPG game is what i found.

What hapened to living stories and picking up some xp on the way, not even minding your xp? I played AD&D and NWN and Elder Scrolls games without watching any XP progression, i was livinhg stories, doing quests, living a RP-ed life which formed my charachter, made him evolve into a more powerfull from of himself until he reached demigod status or something such.

MMO's mostly want to keep the players " busy" " entertained" by levels and level progression, suddenly level progression is the all important factor ingame and im talking about the game making it like that, not a player thinking its important. (needing level 20-smething in craft to even dress yourself, level 50 or better 100 to play events, level 100-150 to play rites/quests that are more then fed-ex, and well if you like traveling and exploring on your own and your such a bad sneak as i am, level 250 to do that and max dp anyway roflol)

I come from game systems where requirements are mechanisms inplace to keep you from wielding the most powerfull weapon there is before the game balanceing allows it. So things like weapons, Armor and magical items of any kind (yes even magical cola machines lol) had a requirement to keep you from wrecking the game balance, not for keeping you busy for ages until you can taste some minor content.

Depth, i havent seen any quest that had any real depth yet in an MMO, i did however have seen many funny quests and many quests with a little more flavor as your general fed-ex missions (most of those in Anarchy Online)
Rites in Ryzom seem to have mostly funny or nice flavour stories, that was one of the 1st things i thought doing them: Would be great to have all missions and rites wich at least that much of really nice flavour stories.

So why is it that an MMO tends to be more like a sandbox for players to connect to and either play and make castles with friends, or have them beat the castles of their opponets back to sands with their plastic shovels?

Personally i dont think and MMO is a great platform to RP, not compared to games like tabletop and maybe R2, depeding what it will become or in anyway NWN modules and player run persistant worlds in NWN.
Why? Because the players and DM(dungeon master, story teller) have no way of impacting the world and events in them.
Ofcourse you can have RP guilds and rollplay all you like, but its not going to impact events of the world, where doing that on tabletop or NWN-like game mechanism modules on a persistant world would.
An MMO is albout playing part in a world that has been made up already, a history that has been made up already, and a planned line of future events that has been globaly made up already. It is all about having yourself entertained by the vision of the game author.

So a great MMO will be one with a rich and i really mean RICH stoy(backgound, history and future) one being shaped by the actions of the players that have a chance to rollplay according to the vision of the game author and have their rollplaying influence the world so they feel part of it, so it feels like a world more then a sandbox. Also RICH with content, minor funny things, flavour stories, flavour quests, quests that matter, quests that dont, quests that are unique even. If you cant do this as a company, give players the tools to place quests in a bazar kind of ingame forum, wanted posters anyone for PR killings?

My point is, when are MMO's going to reach the flavour and depth of games like the Elder Scrolls and AD&D? When for example the D&D system is from the 1970's it has been evolved and matured (and now wrecked by Wizards of the Coast lol) to a great system, a world/universe. Its not something new i ask, i ask to use al that evolution of RP(G) gaming and make it into that game we al want, i dont think it is hard to find what the majority of players are looking for, a market that isnt fulfilled, only by promises so far.

[grimjim]

My point is, when are MMO's going to reach the flavour and depth of games like the Elder Scrolls and AD&D? When for example the D&D system is from the 1970's it has been evolved and matured (and now wrecked by Wizards of the Coast lol) to a great system, a world/universe. Its not something new i ask, i ask to use al that evolution of RP(G) gaming and make it into that game we al want, i dont think it is hard to find what the majority of players are looking for, a market that isnt fulfilled, only by promises so far.

By and large I agree with most of what you said, especially about NWN which is about the next best thing to tabletop play at the moment. If only the scenario creation was about a step easier, especially the scripting

MMORPGs aren't really like tabletop gaming yet and its not just because of the lack of responsiveness from the persistent world (You could argue that they're TOO persistent! ).

A computer cannot, without human intervention, anticipate or adapt to the mind-numbing array of stuff that players want to do. Even humans have trouble with it sometimes, at the murder mystery event we were trying out actions and investigations that the Guides and GMs didn't seem to be prepared for and didn't answer. A human GM in tabletop can make things up on the fly, computer programs have to anticipate and be much more tightly scripted, there's much less room for improvisation.

MMORPGs are a bit more like large, live-action roleplaying games, in some ways a little better, in some ways a little worse.

The biggest difference is, I think, that unlike with a TTRPG or a LARP not everyone playing an MMORPG is there to roleplay, a fair number are there to 'beat' the game or to play, they do not project themselves into their character's shoes and have no interest in doing so. Given the name of the games (MMORPGs) that's a bit like turning up to a football match with a rugby ball and insisting on playing rugby but that's not really anyone's fault. The computer industry and computer games themselves, can't support a real roleplaying outlook or play style and lots of people look down on or have never seen a TTRPG. Heck, thousands of people roleplay all the time without ever really realising it, look at the hundreds of freeform Harry Potter roleplays going on with people who've never even HEARD of RPGs.

You have to set your expectations a little lower, respect the limits of computers, even with human control, and understand that this is an open commercial enterprise, which means they can't and won't turn people away, there's no real quality control on _the_players_.

MMORPGs do stand to learn a lot from 30 years of TTRPG innovation and development but they seem particularly stubborn and incapable of doing so. I think this is because of the sheer weight of money involved, that encourages timmidity which is why we still see game after game that is fantasy and level-class based. I mean, come ON, that's the dark ages of roleplaying games!

[dazman76]

And now an opinion from the other side I think

The main problem I have with your view J, is that your definition of RPG is not the definition shared by the majority of people playing online games. Basically, most computer-based RPG games (and yes I know there are exceptions ) have very little to do with acting or actually being in a role, and have much more to do with carrying characters and roles through a (pretty much) pre-ordained storyline. If you held a poll of 'general computer-based RPG players' (read 'not a poll on these forums'), asking their favourite RPG game, they would reply with something such as Final Fantasy, Legend of Zelda, or something of that ilk. Those are not games that require acting, nor do they require much improvisation, except maybe on a spell/item/equipment use level. I'm not saying their 'true RPGs' - I don't even think such a thing exists, or at least there are several of them, depending on who you talk to.

I have no problems with people who are into their RP, but you guys tend to come over on the "let us have our game back you non-acting mainstreamers", and that's purely because the term MMORPG has RP in it. Well, as you pointed out yourself, the general projection of an MMORPG is an RPG (of the type I mentioned above) with MMO stuck on the front of it - meaning I get to cast spells and manage my equipment/stats, with friends. I know you're hating reading this already, but it's a fact, and you know we're talking about the majority of the MMORPG community. Strong RP players are a minority in most MMO communities, even if that MMO is very RP friendly.

At the end of the day, a lot of people see MMORPGs as co-operative online gaming, and nothing more. Not everybody wants to act out a character, and delve deep into storyline 24/7. The game mechanics are there to allow people to do this, and unless they're taken away, people will do it.

For a game to contain a high amount of RP over anything else, the stage and environment needs to be correct. And the stage needs to be empty of people who are not willing actors. This you know J, from sitting around a table with 4 or 5 friends playing TTRPG. I bet your dungeon isn't so immersive when your stella-guzzling mate in the corner keeps belching whilst watching TV

[trenker]

I bet your dungeon isn't so immersive when your stella-guzzling mate in the corner keeps belching whilst watching TV

Oh good, he's gone at last. I was thinking we would never get a serious session with him around. He just never got deeper than "lets kill da orcs now".

Oh, and this other guy, we rolled him 6 characters once. I don't know how the planets were aligned but they all had very poor stats. He just didn't want to play any of them; perhaps he just couldn't. His final option (and this is true btw) was to play a one-hit-point turd. He actually discovered RP that day with his repeated well timed comments such as "has anyone trod on me yet?".

A thought for this thread: Is perhaps TTRPG more in the imagination while MOGs are all on screen action? A bit like comparing a book to a film. And we lazy consumers prefer a nice film plonked infront of us don't we? Well, that stella guy does anyway.

[gialla]

IMHO the big problem of MMORPG is that there are too many players.
I mean, when you play your tabletop session of AD&D, there's the DM, you and a couple of friends.
DM will create a story just for you and for your little group, adjusting the difficoulty level with respect of your skills.
And, after 3 hours of playing, you'll stop the session and then you'll restart maybe a week later restarting exactly from where you left.

This is not something you can do with a MMOG.
Every event you create in a MMOG, can't involve all the players but it's prolly restricted by a few of them. You can't go rescue princess XXx with 90 players !! There will be little challenge. So you have to create a way to choose some players and to discard others (and this is going to be a problem because you have to tell someon who's paying to play that he can't join the event).

And, talking about content that will involve more than a little 3 hours session, what will happen at the end of the day? When you and your group have to log out.
You can't simple quit the game and then restart the next day expecting that nothing has changed.

[grimjim]

The main problem I have with your view J, is that your definition of RPG is not the definition shared by the majority of people playing online games.

Hey, we were here first We defined the genre and play method, not our fault if someone co-opted it

Basically, most computer-based RPG games (and yes I know there are exceptions ) have very little to do with acting or actually being in a role, and have much more to do with carrying characters and roles through a (pretty much) pre-ordained storyline.

Yep, I'd agree, but an MMORPG is a mcuh different context to a single player 'RPG' computer game. Some very few CRPGs allow your actions to influence reactions and outcome but these are extremely limited. I can think of Arcanum, Deus Ex (More of an FPS) KOTOR, Fable and not that many more.

MMORPGs do have a large amount of other people in them though, and human interaction in the form of guides/GMs so a more 'genuine' RPG approach is possible and, frankly, a lot more rewarding.

If you held a poll of 'general computer-based RPG players' (read 'not a poll on these forums'), asking their favourite RPG game, they would reply with something such as Final Fantasy, Legend of Zelda, or something of that ilk. Those are not games that require acting, nor do they require much improvisation, except maybe on a spell/item/equipment use level. I'm not saying their 'true RPGs' - I don't even think such a thing exists, or at least there are several of them, depending on who you talk to.

If you posted such a poll in a computer specific forum without qualification, then perhaps you wouldn't. If you specifically included tabletop RPGs, LARPs and MMORPGs you'd likely get more awareness of TTRPGs again and MMORPG players in particular seem to include a lot of traditional RPGers. I think that's because less people feel they have the time and capability to get together for traditional RPGs as they get older and work/life intrudes so they go to the next best thing.

I have no problems with people who are into their RP, but you guys tend to come over on the "let us have our game back you non-acting mainstreamers", and that's purely because the term MMORPG has RP in it. Well, as you pointed out yourself, the general projection of an MMORPG is an RPG (of the type I mentioned above) with MMO stuck on the front of it - meaning I get to cast spells and manage my equipment/stats, with friends. I know you're hating reading this already, but it's a fact, and you know we're talking about the majority of the MMORPG community. Strong RP players are a minority in most MMO communities, even if that MMO is very RP friendly.

I'd agree that strong RPers are a minority in most MMORPGs, yep, they're a minority in most tabletop RPGing too, at least in the way that I would mean 'strong RPers'. I'd love to know how or why Role-Playing Game has come to mean 'classes, levels and inventory management' when the very name itself pretty clearly spells out what it's really about - Playing a Role. Even Zelda has its quests and even if everything is prescripted people react to Link as Who He Is. Even Final Fantasy with all its cutscenes and rescripted dialogue does the same. More rarely do you actually get to define the role, but it can be done and has been.

An MMORPG is much more like a traditional RPG environment or a Live Action Role Play event, unlike the single player CRPGs roleplaying CAN occur here and, honestly, you'll have a much more rewarding, involving and fun time if you do.

At the end of the day, a lot of people see MMORPGs as co-operative online gaming, and nothing more. Not everybody wants to act out a character, and delve deep into storyline 24/7. The game mechanics are there to allow people to do this, and unless they're taken away, people will do it.

If you want cooperative online gaming, and nothing more, go play an FPS shooter. There's no complications of plot or roleplay there beyond, perhaps, choosing an equipment load out and 'class'

Acting out a character can be as simple or as deep as you want it to be, it doesn't HAVE to involve delving everso deeply into the lore. After all, how many of us know every detail of the history and 'lore' of our own countries in the real world? Hell, you could even play a pig ignorant character or someone who seeks lore from more knowledgable people within the game, rather than from the web pages.

Game mechanics are a framework, a scaffold upon which a game is built. Even in single player CRPGs the story is the thing, unfolding it, discovering secrets and working towards an end. An MMORPG gives you more scope, puts more of the decisions back in your hands.

You make RPing sound like a bit of a chore sometimes, its not, its fun. Its playacting like you did as a child "Lets play James Bond." or "Soldiers." or re-enacting the film you sneakily watched last night that you weren't supposed to. Let your hair down, forget your troubles, be someone else for five minutes, someone you're interested in, someone you want to be or someone that horrifies you.

For a game to contain a high amount of RP over anything else, the stage and environment needs to be correct. And the stage needs to be empty of people who are not willing actors. This you know J, from sitting around a table with 4 or 5 friends playing TTRPG. I bet your dungeon isn't so immersive when your stella-guzzling mate in the corner keeps belching whilst watching TV

The mate gets sent to the pub, the TV gets switched off

And I generally don't do dungeons, far too postmodern for that

Extraneous non-playing girlfriends/hangers on are a problem though. You CAN be a passive observer, doing your own thing, without being disruptive though.

Maybe I should do a roleplaying 101 course in another thread

[grimjim]

I mean, when you play your tabletop session of AD&D, there's the DM, you and a couple of friends. DM will create a story just for you and for your little group, adjusting the difficoulty level with respect of your skills.
And, after 3 hours of playing, you'll stop the session and then you'll restart maybe a week later restarting exactly from where you left.

That would be a typical, standard model of a normal RPG session, but they're not always like that. I've run 24 hour RPG sessions once or twice (for charity) and once a crazy 48 hour session.

There are also LARPs which are big, ongoing events with many times the players of normal TT sessions. I've run or helped run those for hundreds of people at a time, with assistants. There are also some LARP organisations that run 24/7 with thousands of people interacting around the world via E-mail, IRC and at physical events. These with ongoing stories, sub stories etc etc.

While you can't reproduce the perfectly personalised RPG experience you cite there are more ways to skin a cat and the MMORPG is sometimes a BETTER way to do that since so many of the details can be automated, scripted and/or run by machine.

Every event you create in a MMOG, can't involve all the players but it's prolly restricted by a few of them. You can't go rescue princess XXx with 90 players !! There will be little challenge. So you have to create a way to choose some players and to discard others (and this is going to be a problem because you have to tell someon who's paying to play that he can't join the event).

The trick is to produce quantity and variety so that there is something for everyone. And you can go and resuce Princess XXX with an army, that was called The Trojan War

And, talking about content that will involve more than a little 3 hours session, what will happen at the end of the day? When you and your group have to log out. You can't simple quit the game and then restart the next day expecting that nothing has changed.

That's the other thing that's needed, a truly dynamic ability to update and maintain these worlds in response to players actions. You spend a night setting up a fort, log back in the next day, it should still be there (unless someone burnt it down). Outposts may give us a taster of that.

[michielb]

That's the other thing that's needed, a truly dynamic ability to update and maintain these worlds in response to players actions. You spend a night setting up a fort, log back in the next day, it should still be there (unless someone burnt it down). Outposts may give us a taster of that.

Would a world like this serve your purpose? http://www.ryzom.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17038

[grimjim]

Would a world like this serve your purpose? http://www.ryzom.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17038

Yep, but you can't have that in conjunction with a grind.

There is a way around it though...

Have a roaming area in which beasts of a certain type wander.

During breeding season the number of beasts within that area doubles its numbers (or spawns a single one of that type of creature if there are none left) up to a theoretical maximum number allowed within that area.

To overcome the 'starving newb' problem you have yubos, which breed all year round

[thebax]

Who be actin' ?