Jessica, Ryzom and PvP?

[grimjim]

The numbers come from several sources, including the various surveys on the forums here. Normally I would be skeptical of these having much relevence but we know Ryzom has a relatively small community.

IF we accept the 500 figure that some people posting here have considered, EVEN if we go for a higher figure such as 1000, or 10,000 a sample of 100 or so is a good enough proportion for professional polls to extrapolate.

Another factor would be taking in Jessica's, admittedly, old article which cites and approximate figure of 20% being PvP fascinated. Ryzom has a much less PvP/PK advocate playerbase and I, personally, consider it likely to be more like 5% of the playerbase that is actually that excited by these developments.

Where do you keep coming up with these numbers... a half dozen of the biggest guilds are waiting for nothing less than exactly what is coming... Sure Melinoe don't gank folks typically in PR like some of the others do... but we plan to crack heads to get the Outpost we want if need be and defend it til the last man...

A lot of people are waiting for _Outposts_ but not necessarily for a free for all player Vs player idiocy-fest, which I unfortunately expect to blow up, only worse, because there's more to fight over.

You can want an outpost and not want constant hassling from people who are ostensibly on your side, via faction or race. You can want to play and hold something without having to devote time to power levelling and constant PvP. That's denying the majority of the playerbase (and even 51% would be a majority and I think even the rabid pro PvPers would admit they're in a minority) access to content without the hassle of getting involved in non-consensual PvP.

Other ways of getting them? They've been suggested before. Diplomacy, foraging, completing special 'quests', being handed responsibility from the governments of the lands, and so on. Land purchase, now you come to mention it, would also be an option.

[iphdrunk]

why, oh why, do I have the feeling that all these discussions are fruitless, that Nevrax already has in mind what they want as PvP in ryzom, be to attract new players that like PvP, to fulfill a dream of its original architect or whatever.

So what can I conclude? outposts will bring PvP. Ryzom is geared towards faction (race?) and later guild vs guild PvP(well, it was supposed to come with outposts). PvP will remain consensual. No matter how hard some players cry, PvP will come. Nevrax wants players to PvP. PvP brings a means to entertain players that are high level that is way more cost effective than adding other kind of content (whatever it may mean).

It is still unclear what will players do if they awnt to have access to outpost benefits without fighting for them. What am I missing?

I have a last doubt tho.... Several posters haw hinted the large umber of player that like/don't like PvP. Nevertheless, one objective fact that I see is that PvP events (be gladiator, team vs team etc) are one of the most crowded events in the server, and that PvP is consensual and completely unrelated to Lore

[grimjim]

I have a last doubt tho.... Several posters haw hinted the large umber of player that like/don't like PvP. Nevertheless, one objective fact that I see is that PvP events (be gladiator, team vs team etc) are one of the most crowded events in the server, and that PvP is consensual and completely unrelated to Lore

Gladiator and team events, duels, ARE consensual PvP and an altogether different prospect with nothing to be won or lost.

Aside from showing the current level or predictability in combat and the sheer, ridiculous powerlevel of magic they don't actually serve much, especially in relation to this current argument.

Most people who are anti-PvP aren't anti PvP events with good roleplay, good goals and presented as part of the story.

Fighting each other over outposts in our own lands, guilds fighting guilds and ganking people of your own race/faction over materials in the PR fits none of that however.

Outposts will not be consensual, the PR is not consensual, the approach of many to PvP is rooted more in two-player beat-em-ups rather than RP.

[dazman76]

Wrong way round, I'm not feeling too well today, thanks for catching it.

No probs, glad it wasn't me having a blonde moment Hope you're feeling better soon...

I agree, Outposts (in my understanding) do seem to be PvP-centric, and PvP-driven. I can see (and I'm sure you're seeing a similar possibility J) there are ways for Outposts to work without PvP (not completely without it, just without it for those guilds who do not consent). I think buying an Outpost is a great idea - why not? Of course, there is the flipside - in a hostile world, you could buy an Outpost in one instant, and have it taken away by force in the next instant.

Would non-PvP players be happy with that eventuality? I do see non-PvP Outpost acquisition working, but there has to be the possibility of a PvP-driven guild stealing your Outpost by force. I think if that possibility doesn't exist, you need segregation, which we know is never a good thing. PvP's Outposts on the left, NPvP's Outposts on the right. With a big fence in between...

[dazman76]

why, oh why, do I have the feeling that all these discussions are fruitless, that Nevrax already has in mind what they want as PvP in ryzom, be to attract new players that like PvP, to fulfill a dream of its original architect or whatever.

I think you have that feeling because, at least in part, it's probably true. I think it's safe to say that Outposts will arrive in their "current form", i.e. the way Nevrax intended them to work. Sure, we'll have input, and there'll be changes - but not immediately.

I honestly think/hope Nevrax is using PvP to provide a "full game", rather than to attract new players and bolster the player count. They created Ryzom to be different to the rest, and deep down, I feel they are still working to that end.

[vguerin]

Outposts have been a large part of why so many FBTers stuck around so long... Like the coming of Jena it's a bright spot on the horizon, it is not a new feature. We tested the basic's of this briefly before the game was ever released...

The LATE LATE LATE release/implimentation of this is one of the reasons we have lost so many long time players. Devotion and dedication is not always enough when your paying for something and not quite getting it all. If I saw a sign/box that said "Crappy Meal - $3.99" and bought the Crappy Meal.... only to find I got no toy... when clearly the box said there was a toy in my crappy meal... I would bring it back it or not buy more crappy meals.

The SoR gamebox mentions PvP as well as key outposts... There is no reason anyone playing should expect them not to be fully available. I have no grudge against non-PvPers at all and enjoy a lil RP here and there.... But many of you are imposing yourselves in all the PvP related threads and speaking for all or "80%" of the server...

Maybe you do speak for 80% of whats left of the server population... Lord knows how many were lost after the Patch 1 fiasco and subsequent lack of information flow and content additions...

Even so, using your own math Jyudas, and I like ya even though our game style is not nearly the same as mine... your passionate about your playstyle...

20% of 500 = 100... Thats 100 people interspersed among XX guilds... Verdant Heights alone has 32 Outposts... It seems apparent that there is not going to be any conflict that folks do not knowingly walk into ??? There should be any number of ways to acquire an Outpost... but how can you defend it without conflict ? I am having a Monty Python flashback here

Anyhow... if only 100 people on the server are gonna fight me back for my outpost... and they are spread out between the guilds... Melinoe has XX members willing to die for what they believe in and their allies...

"All joo Outpost belong to us"


___________________
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Matis Dual Blader & Medium Gladiator Champion (Undefeated)
Click here to join Melinoe or read Ultimate Harvesting Guide
Melinoe - Atys Harvesters http://ryzom.twazz.net/
WWJD - What Would Jena Do ?

[grimjim]

The SoR gamebox mentions PvP as well as key outposts... There is no reason anyone playing should expect them not to be fully available. I have no grudge against non-PvPers at all and enjoy a lil RP here and there.... But many of you are imposing yourselves in all the PvP related threads and speaking for all or "80%" of the server...

The figures support it, but the problem is that PvP is another one of those terms that means very little by itself.

I keep attending some of these PvP gladiator events trying to get a feel for why people like doing this. My guild even hosts knife-fight events (but that's as much to do with gambling, socialisation and creating an 'underground' feel as it is to do with the actual fights.

Many of us who do not like 'PvP' don't have a problem with it so much for a proper goal, within the context of the lore.

Outposts COULD provide that, within context, they certainly provide an acheivable goal, however, many, even the majority I would say, of PvPers are the worst kind of annoying netscum who make playing ANY kind of multiplayer online game a trial.

Maybe you do speak for 80% of whats left of the server population... Lord knows how many were lost after the Patch 1 fiasco and subsequent lack of information flow and content additions...

With you on Patch One, that was awful, but if people had had just a week's more patience until everything readjusted and settled down they'd still be here.

20% of 500 = 100... Thats 100 people interspersed among XX guilds... Verdant Heights alone has 32 Outposts... It seems apparent that there is not going to be any conflict that folks do not knowingly walk into ??? There should be any number of ways to acquire an Outpost... but how can you defend it without conflict ? I am having a Monty Python flashback here

If it is even that many. I doubt there are that many on the pro-side of the divide, those playing an MMO**G rather than an MMORPG.

What IS the appeal of fighting and killing other players? Really?

If its the challenge why is it so often ganking?
If it is to roleplay why do people do it outside their faction/race alignment?

Couldn't the same thrill be had if some of the mobs were directly controlled by Guides or GMs to give them that tactical and intelligent status of taking on another human being?

You mentioned the lack of updates and additions, now we have one, but to get the goodies people have to participate in something they're not particularly interested in and to expose themselves to the possibility of being attacked by anyone.

I'd much rather see no PvP zones with PvP being something that gets turned on by events or is limited by faction alignment with the occupation and maintenance of outposts designating the borders of Kami or Karavan control. If the factions actually meant something (Easier mat exploitation for Karavan and stronger Magic for Kami for example) within those areas you could use outposts to map ongoing conflict between the peoples and NPC forces.

[petej]

I think if that possibility doesn't exist, you need segregation, which we know is never a good thing. PvP's Outposts on the left, NPvP's Outposts on the right. With a big fence in between...

Easy enough to do - have PvP outposts in PvP regions and outposts with other means of ownership in non-PvP regions

[aylwyne]

There should be any number of ways to acquire an Outpost... but how can you defend it without conflict ?

Just like there can be many potential ways to acquire an outpost, there can be many ways of holding an outpost.

I outlined several ideas in post two of this thread. Without rehashing all the ideas, I'll just use one specific example...

Let's say that the main purpose of a "workshop" type of outpost is to generate crafted goods (I'm basing this simply off the 'workshop' in the name). It seems to reason that this outpost will need to be provided with a steady stream of materials for it to function.

They could design a system where a guild needed to meet a certain quota of crafting materials in order to gain the 'contract' to run the outpost. (you could mix up the grades and qualities to include different levels of harvesters/hunters). You would have a set duration, perhaps a week, to meet the quota.

To keep the outpost, you'd need to maintain a steady supply for the workshop (i.e. provide X mats each week).

To win over the contract for the outpost, another guild would need to prove that they can be a better supplier. They could declare their intent to outsupply you. Both sides would then have a week to see what they can supply. If the challenging guild provides 10% more mats than the occupying guild, they get control (I say 10% more just to give the defending guild a slight advantage, similar to hired guards for a combat oriented outpost).

I'm not proposing to do away with PvP. In fact, my idea here is PvP, it's just not PvP combat. I'm also not proposing that all outposts should be non-combat. I think there should be outposts focused on all skill types as well as some hybrid types that would need multiple skills to obtain and hold.

[grimjim]

Easy enough to do - have PvP outposts in PvP regions and outposts with other means of ownership in non-PvP regions

Good point, well made.

PvE attacks and invasion events (if they wipe out all defenders of PvE zone camps) could put them up for grabs again.