Problem
It's very very very rare cases that I have seen someone use range weapons.
People don't use range weapons than in very special cases, but not really in dayly fights. Some of my team members have use them a few times, because range weapon skill was lowest and they did not wanna "nerf" the teams exp. You can't really use weapon, when bullets cost more than benefit You get from loot. Also carrying a lot of bullets and then run out of them in middle of fight, isn't helping the situation.
Solutions
Fixing the range weapons starts from the bullets. We need more and lighter bullets, what also cost A LOT less per/shot than now. Like 10 times more bullets with same base prices what we have now. Example crafters could do 10 times more from materials than now. I'm not even sure if 10 times is enough to fix the situation. Carrying bullets it self, is pretty high penalty for range weapon skill, compared it to melee/magic skills.
Range weapon problem
Re: Range weapon problem
Hmm, dunno the prices for ammunition. Its cheap when you craft the ammo yourself. But i admit, the weight might need a little balance.sofiaoak wrote:Problem
It's very very very rare cases that I have seen someone use range weapons.
People don't use range weapons than in very special cases, but not really in dayly fights. Some of my team members have use them a few times, because range weapon skill was lowest and they did not wanna "nerf" the teams exp. You can't really use weapon, when bullets cost more than benefit You get from loot. Also carrying a lot of bullets and then run out of them in middle of fight, isn't helping the situation.
Solutions
Fixing the range weapons starts from the bullets. We need more and lighter bullets, what also cost A LOT less per/shot than now. Like 10 times more bullets with same base prices what we have now. Example crafters could do 10 times more from materials than now. I'm not even sure if 10 times is enough to fix the situation. Carrying bullets it self, is pretty high penalty for range weapon skill, compared it to melee/magic skills.
Dont want to heat up that topic again
but the bulk of my backpack is not enough 
. For bulk, RP and fun i would travel with packer. But cause i can not take them with me when TPing this is not a useful option.feature request is that i can pay the stableboy to transfer my packer to another stable somewhere on Atys or that the packer(s) who is on "follow me" does jump through TPs with me.
Psylo - Tryker and Homin
Shinto Digging Ltd.
---
typing errors are intended and ment for entertainment
Shinto Digging Ltd.
---
typing errors are intended and ment for entertainment
Re: Range weapon problem
It is not a penny cheaper. You pay with your time and price of mats you would get from markets otherwise (or price of crafted ammo).micrix wrote:Hmm, dunno the prices for ammunition. Its cheap when you craft the ammo yourself. But i admit, the weight might need a little balance.
Some kind ammo pouches or belts would be nice.
Mikos, Abyss Eye
Re: Range weapon problem
I am online anywaysmmatto wrote:It is not a penny cheaper. You pay with your time and price of mats you would get from markets otherwise (or price of crafted ammo).
Some kind ammo pouches or belts would be nice.
Ranged is my "hobby" skill. The funny is, it seems that crafting ammo goes as fast (or slow) as advancing in ranged. So there not a feeling of grind.Now serious. You mean a pouche as additional ammo-only bulk ? Not a bad idea too.
Psylo - Tryker and Homin
Shinto Digging Ltd.
---
typing errors are intended and ment for entertainment
Shinto Digging Ltd.
---
typing errors are intended and ment for entertainment
Re: Range weapon problem
I'd say the amount and weight of the bullets is only a huge problem using launchers and autolauncers. A launcher round takes 4 materials to craft and takes up 15 bulk. You can only carry about 10 rounds which with the normal attack will be shot up in one minute burning up 40 materials in the process. And that for half the damage an elementalist can do. For autolaunchers it's a little less extreme, 'only' 5 bulk and 2 materials per bullet, ofcourse you'll also be doing less damage.
But using a pistol or rifle you can carry over a 1000 bullets at once, and it only costs you one material per 10 bullets. The real problem in my opinion is the + Hit Rate stanza.
If you look at Holina's data on max damage per second, you wouldn't say ranged weapons were so terribly underpowered compared to melee (Let's forget for a minute melee is underpowered itself). Pistols and rifles do about 2/3 the damage of 1-handed melee. But the added benefit of attacking at a range and being able to instantly switch damage types (slash/pierce/smash) could compensate for the 30% damage loss. It's the way that the maximum damage is obtained that's the problem.
Melee fighters obtain their maximum damage by using the Increase Damage stanza, which directly doubles the damage they inflict with the attack. They pay a stamina or health cost for this every attack. No problem there.
Ranged fighters must obtain their maximum damage by using the + Hit Rate stanza, which doesn't increase the damage but the attack speed. And an increased firing rate which has to be paid for per shot makes a very effective stamina drain. Plus ranged fighters dont get to use attack after parry, attack after critical and attack after feint. Not to mention equipment wears with every shot fired. So that stanza needs some major tweaking.
Also what would be usefull is a way to craft more bullets at once. Currently you have to use a lot of crafting options to get a decent supply of ammo. Give us an option to craft 10 times as much ammo at the cost of 10 times as much mats.
And ending on a positive note: thanks for the patch that at least made the ammo stack now. Before that I had to reload every 24 shots. It didn't make ranged any more powerfull, but certainly a lot less annoying.
But using a pistol or rifle you can carry over a 1000 bullets at once, and it only costs you one material per 10 bullets. The real problem in my opinion is the + Hit Rate stanza.
If you look at Holina's data on max damage per second, you wouldn't say ranged weapons were so terribly underpowered compared to melee (Let's forget for a minute melee is underpowered itself). Pistols and rifles do about 2/3 the damage of 1-handed melee. But the added benefit of attacking at a range and being able to instantly switch damage types (slash/pierce/smash) could compensate for the 30% damage loss. It's the way that the maximum damage is obtained that's the problem.
Melee fighters obtain their maximum damage by using the Increase Damage stanza, which directly doubles the damage they inflict with the attack. They pay a stamina or health cost for this every attack. No problem there.
Ranged fighters must obtain their maximum damage by using the + Hit Rate stanza, which doesn't increase the damage but the attack speed. And an increased firing rate which has to be paid for per shot makes a very effective stamina drain. Plus ranged fighters dont get to use attack after parry, attack after critical and attack after feint. Not to mention equipment wears with every shot fired. So that stanza needs some major tweaking.
Also what would be usefull is a way to craft more bullets at once. Currently you have to use a lot of crafting options to get a decent supply of ammo. Give us an option to craft 10 times as much ammo at the cost of 10 times as much mats.
And ending on a positive note: thanks for the patch that at least made the ammo stack now. Before that I had to reload every 24 shots. It didn't make ranged any more powerfull, but certainly a lot less annoying.
Re: Range weapon problem
I have been leveling range now for a little while.
It is the last box on my 101 quest in the fight tree.
Some points about range in general that I have found based on experience.
Cost of Weapon:
If you want to make a good weapon, its going to take time and dedication, I would seriously suggest you find a retail range weapon crafter and pay top dapper for a good weapon.
I know of 3 very very good range crafters - they are welcome to advertise here or ask me and I will refer you (with their permission).
WARNING: your weapon will break very very very very fast.
Cost of Ammo:
It is as expensive as you make it to level range.
Buying ammo is difficult as not many people make it for resale in the quantities you need to use range effectively (and most sold at the merchants is failed/craft leveling ammo). The price to buy range ammo is relative, a lower level player who views a million dappers as a goal to become rich, will see it as a costly exercise as the ammo vs mob mat drops ratio is not good enough to make it a 'cost free' sport. However to an armour crafter like me that can sell 1 ql200 Heavy pant direct to the NPC for 56k dappers would view the cost of buying the ammo as 'cheap' and would in some cases not consider picking up the mob mats as its inconvenient. (So its player relative!)
(View point of the player - effects the view point of the skill)
You can craft your own ammo. This takes time, dedication and requires you to dig the mats yourself. I say this because of the game dynamic that states:
1 mats value, in dapper, is greater than the percentage part of the value of the item, in dapper, it is made in to.
So buying mats to craft into ammo is more expensive than buying the ammo from a crafter or merchant (if you can find one that is!)
So to level range you need to be a Harvester/Crafter/Range fighter, to be self-sufficient.
Facts I know about pistol and rifle ammo:
4 mats = 40 shots = 200 dappers a shot if you buy the mats at 2k each.
Good ammo can be made from choice mats. Dung resin+Beckers bark+Koorin Oil makes good ammo (not the best) and all these mats can be dung for 'safe' places in all the lands.
Scale this based on your skills or that of the people you know:
I can dig 70+ mats a prospect (lvl 200+ harvester with a carer) in 2 mins (god I miss Sky!)
So I can make 999 shots in less than 15 mins.
I can use 999 shot in about 1 to 1.5hr or range leveling
Weight of ammo/bulk:
Weight per shot of ammo is low for pistol and rifle (launchers and auto launchers are 'toys' and are best used for leveling after 151+ as rifles are more effective leveling weapons)
SOON (tm) weight will not be an issue as weight is being removed as a factor in relation to your bag.
I can carry 999 shots (1 stack) at a push.
Leveling range:
Range and affliction are secondary skills or put another way are not the best skills to choose as you main branch from an efficiency point of view. Sorry Cry, I think you mad, but you have my respect for being a die hard range nutter!
I say secondary skill because to solo it you are going to need a load of hit points, a load of stamina, a load of time or a very helpful team of people and you are going to break all the equipment you wear very quickly in the process. This skill can be worse than CC for breaking armour, jewels (don't wear them unless you make the things or can get them for free)
Ways to level range....
1. The cheap way
Find a high level elementalist and ask them to make an enchantment (a kill spell) get a huge amount of sap crystals (or learn how to make them yourself).
Now shoot the mob till you hit it and then - BLAST IT with the kill spell - 3k XP - repeat - recharge
Before anyone runs around shouting CHEAT or EXPLOITER, this is actually slower solo than doing it 'properly', and it is actually a fair use of a game mechanic!
It is however damn cheap on ammo costs, but sap crystals cost dapper to make so not that much.
2. The team way
Join a team range friendly, that are fight mobs you can hit quickly and once you hit stop shooting and wait for the XP to roll in. If you feel like a leach, give something back to the team by healing between pulls etc.
'Range friendly team' is a bit like an 'Affliction friendly teams', a team who allow all the members to hit before killing the mob.
3. I am high in loads of other skills and I do range for fun method
Plants! Tryker plants! Known as Stingas, the elementalists best friend.
They have average hit points, very solo magic attack, can't move and spawn reasonably quickly.
Level elemental - to get your resists nice and high.
Level melee - to get your HP and Stam nice and high and get those hit rate stanzas.
Now you can just stand and shoot all day long. Your resists make you almost immune to their damage, your HPs and regen cover the firing costs and the occasional hit that gets through.
This method take time and is slow at first, then gets faster, then slows when you step up a mob star.
I guess this method will work above 101 (my current stop level) on plants south of Min Cho (elementalist next port of call)
4. Safari
The most fun is getting a load of 'Rangers' together - but you can guess that this a special thing rather than a normal thing.
5. RUN AROUND NOW!
I love this method but it requires a healer or a stack of HPs.
Shoot a ragus and run away, or in circles. I love the way I still get hit by them when they are 10m+ away but such is the way of the game.
Cutes are also good range bait - but watch for adds!
Conclusion:
1. Right ammo for the job: use ammo that the mob isn't protected against Stingas = slashing, Shooki = smashing, etc
(You want to do as much damage as possible as fast as possible)
2. Accuracy is the most important thing: Use a ACC stanza much higher than the mob, you hit more (this is important) and you do more damage (I have noticed I am more likely to do the max damage if my accuracy is high)., but don't kill yourself by having too high a drain rate.
3. Make the ammo yourself: this will help fund you habit for shooting, as you can sell the rejects.
4. Don't think of this as speed leveling skill, it takes time to level and is not an easy skill. BUT IT IS GREAT FUN!
5. I have a gut feeling that range is very effective! With a fast weapon (HPM 30+) with great ammo (ql90 = dmg around 160 a shot), the RUN AWAY factor, its the only skill you can use while moving.
6. I also think the damage per second is better than people realise.
7. It is a fun skill come hunting with me and see for yourself, be prepared for DP, I am NtM after all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
LANCHERS!
Experts tell me more about the higher levels but based on some lower level experience.
60m range (No other player attack skill has this range as far as I know)
Can be used while running!
Limited ammo capacity but around 600+ damage a shot at around lvl 60 (check facts) its a mighty punch!
Up to 6 targets per shot!
Create a group of launcher users, with a reloader (player will mules, mats and healer skills) and effectively you can drop most players before they can reach you. Never seen this in practice, but the theory works.
Theory - 5 launcher users fire 1 shoot each at the same 6 targets, that is (5x600 = 3k dmg) per target @ 60m range!
That would be 2/3 of a full team taken out in 2 shots, did I mention its quite a fast fire rate with the really hit Hit rate stanzas.
Wonders if any guilds out the are planning test the above?
Tell me if you bothered to read all this
It is the last box on my 101 quest in the fight tree.
Some points about range in general that I have found based on experience.
Cost of Weapon:
If you want to make a good weapon, its going to take time and dedication, I would seriously suggest you find a retail range weapon crafter and pay top dapper for a good weapon.
I know of 3 very very good range crafters - they are welcome to advertise here or ask me and I will refer you (with their permission).
WARNING: your weapon will break very very very very fast.
Cost of Ammo:
It is as expensive as you make it to level range.
Buying ammo is difficult as not many people make it for resale in the quantities you need to use range effectively (and most sold at the merchants is failed/craft leveling ammo). The price to buy range ammo is relative, a lower level player who views a million dappers as a goal to become rich, will see it as a costly exercise as the ammo vs mob mat drops ratio is not good enough to make it a 'cost free' sport. However to an armour crafter like me that can sell 1 ql200 Heavy pant direct to the NPC for 56k dappers would view the cost of buying the ammo as 'cheap' and would in some cases not consider picking up the mob mats as its inconvenient. (So its player relative!)
(View point of the player - effects the view point of the skill)
You can craft your own ammo. This takes time, dedication and requires you to dig the mats yourself. I say this because of the game dynamic that states:
1 mats value, in dapper, is greater than the percentage part of the value of the item, in dapper, it is made in to.
So buying mats to craft into ammo is more expensive than buying the ammo from a crafter or merchant (if you can find one that is!)
So to level range you need to be a Harvester/Crafter/Range fighter, to be self-sufficient.
Facts I know about pistol and rifle ammo:
4 mats = 40 shots = 200 dappers a shot if you buy the mats at 2k each.
Good ammo can be made from choice mats. Dung resin+Beckers bark+Koorin Oil makes good ammo (not the best) and all these mats can be dung for 'safe' places in all the lands.
Scale this based on your skills or that of the people you know:
I can dig 70+ mats a prospect (lvl 200+ harvester with a carer) in 2 mins (god I miss Sky!)
So I can make 999 shots in less than 15 mins.
I can use 999 shot in about 1 to 1.5hr or range leveling
Weight of ammo/bulk:
Weight per shot of ammo is low for pistol and rifle (launchers and auto launchers are 'toys' and are best used for leveling after 151+ as rifles are more effective leveling weapons)
SOON (tm) weight will not be an issue as weight is being removed as a factor in relation to your bag.
I can carry 999 shots (1 stack) at a push.
Leveling range:
Range and affliction are secondary skills or put another way are not the best skills to choose as you main branch from an efficiency point of view. Sorry Cry, I think you mad, but you have my respect for being a die hard range nutter!
I say secondary skill because to solo it you are going to need a load of hit points, a load of stamina, a load of time or a very helpful team of people and you are going to break all the equipment you wear very quickly in the process. This skill can be worse than CC for breaking armour, jewels (don't wear them unless you make the things or can get them for free)
Ways to level range....
1. The cheap way
Find a high level elementalist and ask them to make an enchantment (a kill spell) get a huge amount of sap crystals (or learn how to make them yourself).
Now shoot the mob till you hit it and then - BLAST IT with the kill spell - 3k XP - repeat - recharge
Before anyone runs around shouting CHEAT or EXPLOITER, this is actually slower solo than doing it 'properly', and it is actually a fair use of a game mechanic!
It is however damn cheap on ammo costs, but sap crystals cost dapper to make so not that much.
2. The team way
Join a team range friendly, that are fight mobs you can hit quickly and once you hit stop shooting and wait for the XP to roll in. If you feel like a leach, give something back to the team by healing between pulls etc.
'Range friendly team' is a bit like an 'Affliction friendly teams', a team who allow all the members to hit before killing the mob.
3. I am high in loads of other skills and I do range for fun method
Plants! Tryker plants! Known as Stingas, the elementalists best friend.
They have average hit points, very solo magic attack, can't move and spawn reasonably quickly.
Level elemental - to get your resists nice and high.
Level melee - to get your HP and Stam nice and high and get those hit rate stanzas.
Now you can just stand and shoot all day long. Your resists make you almost immune to their damage, your HPs and regen cover the firing costs and the occasional hit that gets through.
This method take time and is slow at first, then gets faster, then slows when you step up a mob star.
I guess this method will work above 101 (my current stop level) on plants south of Min Cho (elementalist next port of call)
4. Safari
The most fun is getting a load of 'Rangers' together - but you can guess that this a special thing rather than a normal thing.
5. RUN AROUND NOW!
I love this method but it requires a healer or a stack of HPs.
Shoot a ragus and run away, or in circles. I love the way I still get hit by them when they are 10m+ away but such is the way of the game.
Cutes are also good range bait - but watch for adds!
Conclusion:
1. Right ammo for the job: use ammo that the mob isn't protected against Stingas = slashing, Shooki = smashing, etc
(You want to do as much damage as possible as fast as possible)
2. Accuracy is the most important thing: Use a ACC stanza much higher than the mob, you hit more (this is important) and you do more damage (I have noticed I am more likely to do the max damage if my accuracy is high)., but don't kill yourself by having too high a drain rate.
3. Make the ammo yourself: this will help fund you habit for shooting, as you can sell the rejects.
4. Don't think of this as speed leveling skill, it takes time to level and is not an easy skill. BUT IT IS GREAT FUN!
5. I have a gut feeling that range is very effective! With a fast weapon (HPM 30+) with great ammo (ql90 = dmg around 160 a shot), the RUN AWAY factor, its the only skill you can use while moving.
6. I also think the damage per second is better than people realise.
7. It is a fun skill come hunting with me and see for yourself, be prepared for DP, I am NtM after all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
LANCHERS!
Experts tell me more about the higher levels but based on some lower level experience.
60m range (No other player attack skill has this range as far as I know)
Can be used while running!
Limited ammo capacity but around 600+ damage a shot at around lvl 60 (check facts) its a mighty punch!
Up to 6 targets per shot!
Create a group of launcher users, with a reloader (player will mules, mats and healer skills) and effectively you can drop most players before they can reach you. Never seen this in practice, but the theory works.
Theory - 5 launcher users fire 1 shoot each at the same 6 targets, that is (5x600 = 3k dmg) per target @ 60m range!
That would be 2/3 of a full team taken out in 2 shots, did I mention its quite a fast fire rate with the really hit Hit rate stanzas.
Wonders if any guilds out the are planning test the above?
Tell me if you bothered to read all this
Re: Range weapon problem
Neun, I did not read all the way trough, but I think you said mostly that you can easily play low level ranged if you have 200+ dig/mage skills... Well 
Mikos, Abyss Eye
Re: Range weapon problem
I think almost every ranged fighter has some higher levels in other treesmmatto wrote:Neun, I did not read all the way trough, but I think you said mostly that you can easily play low level ranged if you have 200+ dig/mage skills... Well
This is ok in the way that you have a little more HP and STAM to go with. I only know one player who has always carried a gun since i know him.I really enjoy this skill. I do not really lvl it. After a lot of grind this is just fun. Roaming the woods of Matis, shooting a dog once in a while. I can go in lights and dont need a healer this way. Its a little bit like the fisherman skill in WoW. Useless but somehow fun.
Psylo - Tryker and Homin
Shinto Digging Ltd.
---
typing errors are intended and ment for entertainment
Shinto Digging Ltd.
---
typing errors are intended and ment for entertainment
Re: Range weapon problem
Crafting own ammunition is not option for all. People buy melee weapon, range weapon or magic amps, they don't need crafting skills for it. Not all players do crafting.
Everyone should be able to start using range weapons from the first day in the game.
Issue: Players don't use range weapons in normal dayly fighting. Why?
Everyone should be able to start using range weapons from the first day in the game.
Issue: Players don't use range weapons in normal dayly fighting. Why?
Re: Range weapon problem
sofiaoak wrote:Problem
It's very very very rare cases that I have seen someone use range weapons.
People don't use range weapons than in very special cases, but not really in dayly fights. Some of my team members have use them a few times, because range weapon skill was lowest and they did not wanna "nerf" the teams exp. You can't really use weapon, when bullets cost more than benefit You get from loot. Also carrying a lot of bullets and then run out of them in middle of fight, isn't helping the situation.
Solutions
Fixing the range weapons starts from the bullets. We need more and lighter bullets, what also cost A LOT less per/shot than now. Like 10 times more bullets with same base prices what we have now. Example crafters could do 10 times more from materials than now. I'm not even sure if 10 times is enough to fix the situation. Carrying bullets it self, is pretty high penalty for range weapon skill, compared it to melee/magic skills.
Want to be fair to the original poster and address their points specifically.
Ammo per craft - used to be (a long time ago) something like 8 shots a craft, its now 40. That was a 5x increase.
It used to be something like 12 mats for those 8 shots. They decreased the mats by 4x.
Your proposal would mean 400 bullets from 4 mats
It would bring ammo crafting to earring status as only 2 crafts would be needed for a 1hrs hunt, and leveling it would be a really pain.
Weight: this will be debated till the bodocs come home. You can carry 999 shots. At what point does it become inifinate ammo is the only acceptable option?