Declaration Of Intent

[gaspode1]

I make this posting in sorrow not in anger.

I feel I have to take a stand over the stated guild policy of Infinity that they will kill anyone harvesting supreme nodes that they want in PvP zones.

Since they have been good enough to go public so there is no misunderstanding over their policy, I think I have to do the same both for my policy and the reasoning behind it.

I should first make some facts and my position clear. I hope I cover everything relevant. I play as Oneofone and am a one man guild who uses his guild hall for storage purposes. Their policy does not currently directly affect me but I like to think that even if it would never directly affect me I would still take this stand.

What they are doing is clearly 'legal' within the Rules and CoC.

However, I firmly believe that RP games have many unique features including a moral dimension.

I've carefully read the very long thread involved and see no moral reason why Infinity have any more rights to supreme nodes than the next digger.

Indeed, they have explicitly said that they have made their policy simply because they have the power as a strong guild to do what they want.

If we learn anything from history it is that if a strong group takes action to restrict the liberties of others, and goes unchallenged, they are likely to go on taking further such actions.

In deciding how to respond, I have looked at the methods of people I admire such as Nelson Mandela and Mahatma Gandhi.

Next, I asked myself what unique features Infinity bring to the game that cannot be obtained elsewhere. I concluded that there was nothing.

So, until such time as their guild policy changes to something that is morally acceptable I will be taking the actions described below. I must state that I accept that I am not the ultimate arbiter of what is morally acceptable in the game. That will be decided by the overall opinion of the Ryzom community. If it turns out that I'm the one in a minority then I will certainly reconsider my position. Reaction to this posting will perhaps give an indication of the feelings of the community.

I have decided to SHUN Infinity. How will that work:-

1. As I see players with the guild tag of Infinity in the game I will place them on my Ignore list.

2. So far as is possible, I do not want any advice, help, resing or other interaction with any Infinity member within the game.

3. I will not be part of a team containing Infinity members.

4. I will not knowingly buy any mats from Infinity members.

5. I will not knowingly buy crafted items from Infinity members.

6. I will not res Infinity members. For the sake of clarity, if there is a mixed team of Infinity and non-Infinity members I will always be prepared to res the non-Infinity players.

7. If I think of any further additions to the list, or anyone makes any suitable suggestions that I have not thought of, then the list may be extended.


I have tried to construct actions that any other player or group of players could adopt with, really, no practical affect on their day to day game play. Taking such a course of action publicly does require a person to 'raise their head over the parapet', but sometimes IRL or in a RPG you have to do what you believe is right.

I reiterate, all this is said, and will be done, in sorrow not in anger.

[virii]

You know...... There is no real bad people in Infinity infact without a dout Brithlem is the best leader on the shard but whatever you want to do is your choice.

[gaspode1]

If good people do a bad thing the result is the same and requires those that disagree with them to take action to try and effect changes.

[virii]

If good people do a bad thing the result is the same and requires those that disagree with them to take action to try and effect changes.

Yeah I understand man, dunno if you remember me but we spoke on comms once

[gaspode1]

Yep - If I remember right was on Ventrilo???

Similarly, in the 9 months or so that I have been playing I've spoken to Brithlem, other members of Infinity and many, many more.

[asyne]

Well, I'm sorry to hear that you would take such extreme measures. Being a med-low level player in Infinity, I can't contribute to the supreme mat harvesting, and try to avoid the PvP zones, so I think that banning Infinity folk like me (there are others) is a little harsh.

I feel I have to take a stand over the stated guild policy of Infinity that they will kill anyone harvesting supreme nodes that they want in PvP zones.

I've carefully read the very long thread involved and see no moral reason why Infinity have any more rights to supreme nodes than the next digger.

Well, to be flat, if you feel that you should be as able to get supreme PR mats, find some people that you frequently supply, have them join your guild, and defend yourself when harvesting. Or, if you want to remain a guild of one, just hire some players for mats/dapper/items. Bringing to point...

However, I firmly believe that RP games have many unique features including a moral dimension.

Let's focus on the "RP." Given how role-plaing mirrors real-world organization to a degree, have you ever heard of an expedition to a hostile area that did not bring some guards? Infinity maintains a great deal of it's strength due to the items we get from the harvested mats, so it should be logical that such an aggressive stance would be taken.

If we learn anything from history it is that if a strong group takes action to restrict the liberties of others, and goes unchallenged, they are likely to go on taking further such actions.

Is Infinity restricting liberties? Do you have a right to have unchallenged access to supreme PR mats? Given that the Roots are a PvP zone, supreme PR mats were intended to be fought over, and to be a limited resource that only a strong few would be able to secure.

Still, with that whole blah being said, I will continue to rez you or any other player that I see in game who needs it, regardless. I see PvP as the only place that I will take any kind of hostile action against another player, as it created for that purpose.

[myseren]

*applauds both Gaspode and Syne*

I have to say, from reading the arrogant posts by some members of Infinity on other threads (sorry Noh, but your name stuck in my mind) i feel like taking the same stance as Gaspode. However it is nice to see a well reasoned out response from Syne and i ahve a lot of respect for both the way you put your poibnt across and your propesed stance.

[norvic]

Although respecting the opinions expressed by Syne, I already had thought to take the same actions with regard to infinity as expressed by Onefone.

Every action has an equal an opposite reaction, somone said to me in physics years ago.

[turjake]

Sadly, though I really hope Infinity is better, "Roleplaying" has been the favorite excuse of gankers, griefers and other powerplayer groups troughout the history of MMORPGs. Seeing some of the posts of close Infinity allies here in boards I do doubt the roleplaying point of view.

I will personally take the course of action taken by Gaspode with two additions:

Everything said in Gaspodes list concerns Omega V in addition of Infinity
If either of these groups attack me I will not defend but die without touching my weapons

[gaspode1]

All fair comment Asyne and my answers are:-

On your first point, I pointed out Infinity contribute nothing unique to the game. Therefore members who recognise the moral arguement are free to leave & join other guilds at no detriment to themselves. By choosing to stay you accept their guild policy and consequently I see nothing harsh in you being included in my actions.

On your second point, pleeese don't put words in my mouth that arn't there. This isn't about me and any supreme node diggin I may or may not want to do. It's a point of principle about the morality of a groups stated policy. For myself, I can always dig in non PvP areas. And frankly, if my stance means that I have to go without any Supreme mats whatsoever then I'll just play the game as it lies and work to the best of my ability without those mats.

On your third point, I simply don't agree with your reasoning. To say 'I want to be strong and a result of that strength I will do good things' is no bad aspiration in itself. But if you voluntarily decide that the way you become strong is by saying you will have no compunction about hurting others along the way then you have lost the moral arguement before you start. And along with that you lose the respect of others. And having lost that, then why should anyone trust you to be 'the good guys' and believe that you will do the right thing in the future. If Infinity really wanted to be seen as 'the good guys' then there are several courses of action I can think of that they could take, that are within the game construct but are not detrimental to others. However, I don't believe it is for me to try & tell them what they should do in this context. It's up to Infinity to work it out for themselves as a group. All I'm doing is pointing out the immorality of their chosen course of action.

On your fourth and final point, I have several comments. So far as I am aware, none of us has a pipeline into the minds of the game developers so I don't believe we can say what they did or did not intend. We can only say what the resulting game construct allows. As has already been said by others besides myself, the fact that something can be done does not always make it right to do it. To digress slightly, and perhaps this is something I should have made clear in my original posting, if I am killed by another player or players in a PvP zone, whether they are Infinity members or not and whether I am around a supreme node or not is completely irrelevant to this arguement. If I go into a PvP zone I fully accept the chance of death as part of the game construct (although I reserve the right to question the morality of such an action if and when it occurs and depending on the circumstances involved at the time - but that would be something for a different thread). However, the principle at issue here is not death in a PvP zone; it is quite simply whether one group has a MORAL right to dictate to others in the game what they can and can't do.