Melee Creativity Lacking

[kashius]

Let me start by saying that I enjoy this game a lot.

I am no SoR expert, but I am a gamer. I have played a number of MMOs and have a feel for the gameplay in them. By no means do I aim to compare this to other MMOs, because this is different than any I've played. Also I don't want to come across as saying, "Other games have this, why doesn't this one." I'm dealing solely with the gameplay mechanics of this game and how I feel the melee aspect is unfinished.

A few points:

- While each weapon gets its own branch at higher levels, all the skills remain the same. A person who takes dagger use to 250 will have few, if any skills different from someone who uses a 2H axe. While you can learn every type of weapon, if you pick a favorite you should be able to differentiate yourself based on your weapon by more than just different attack animations.

- Action malus on armor is another issue. While I like the idea and it makes sense it can really hurt people who use faster weapons as they will reduce their stamina/HP (Whichever they use as a credit) too quickly. While the logical solution to this would be to equip lighter armor...it brings me to my next point.

- Dodge/Parry modifiers on equipment I have learned from crafters is +2 at the max. That is with very high quality materials. Since lighter armor only has 5 pieces as opposed to heavy armor's 6, you can only get +10 Dodge/Parry from armor. While good, that does not allow a melee to have Dodge/Parry act as a means of defense while wearing lighter armor. Now I don't know how the numbers for Dodge/Parry directly translate to what happens in a battle with an equal level mob. If anyone has more info on that, it'd be helpful.

- Aimed shots = worhtless? That is the impression I get from the community and from "wasting" points on them. From what I gather the aim shots are supposed to take advantage of weak points in mobs armor...yada yada yada. Do we know these weak points? Do they really do more damage? Are they worth the points, even if only 5? No.

- Criticals. They are there so that you can add the "After Critical" credit. Correct me if I'm wrong. On this one I really hope I am.

- Shields don't give the ability to block? Yes, they add damage reduction and can add +Parry, but that's besides the point. Shields are used for blocking.

Ok, so now I've complained about this and that, and many may have stopped reading by now. But if you're still with me, I don't intend to gripe without some suggestions to correct. Again, I am no game programmer/designer, but I do have a lot of gaming experience. This is me speaking from a standpoint of this games mechanics...no references to other games...I promise. (Addressing issues as I posted them above)

- Special attacks. Not the one for each damage "type" (Pierce/Blunt/Slashing), I mean weapon specific attacks. At pretty low fight level (Lv15) you are introduced to the damage type effects. However, for the next 200+ fight levels you will still be using it, with no other progression. I propose that as you reach each new milestone in the fight tree (100, 150, 200), you gain access to a quest for a new weapon attack. This would add some meaningful quests and allow you skip them if you think they are not for you. These attacks would have the following characteristics:
- Instant. They interrupt action bar progress and once complete resest it to auto attack.
- High option cost that is scaled to fight level.
- Editable by Modular Action System, but initial option cost would make pumping them to ridiculous levels of uberness impossible. - Would all share the same 1 minute timer.

- Dagger
Trifecta (3 attacks at x1.5 damage)
Swift Strike (Strike at normal damage that reduces dodge/parry factor by damage done for 10secs)
Phantom (Normal strike that raises +Dodge/Parry x2 for 10 seconds)

- 1H Axe
Havoc (x2.5 damage attack that cannot miss, be dodged or parried)
Destroy (AoE swing that cannot miss, be dodged or parried)

- 2H Sword
Wild Strike (Strike with x3 - x4 damage possibility)

2H Mace
Knockout (Strike at 1.5 damage that stuns for 5secs. Cannot miss)
Slam (Single attack at x2 damage that stuns for 10secs)

Ok, enough of that. You get the idea.

- Points 2 and 3 go together so I'll get to both of them here. Heavy Armor has a high action malus...and why shouldn't it. Problem comes when using faster weapons (1H weapons/ Daggers). Wearing lighter armor to compensate for this will get you dead very quickly. If they upped the amount of +Dodge/Parry you could put on armor (Maybe weapons), you would have much more surviveability up on the front lines, no matter your armor type. I think the +Dodge/Parry should be applied to armor the same way that +HP/Sap and the rest are (Green Stat). That eliminates the potential to run into the super equips that let you have everything. It also opens up new options on how melees want to conduct their business.

- Again I'll address two at once. Aimed Shots and Criticals could be combined, as by themselves they do pretty much nothing. All of the aimed shots would instead be critical shots aimed at said part and criticals have a 25% chance to inflict a certain effect on enemy. Instead of the typical double damage, you could have so that criticals were a way to dismantle an enemy. Again for fairness sake you could have all these stikes on a shared 15sec timer so you can't just spam the same attack over and over again.

- Shields. Add a block factor to shields. Damage taken = 0. Percentage based on quality and materials used. Cap 30% (Super hard to make)

- And for kicks dual wielding all the 1h weapons would be nice, but not at all necessary.

Now I'm sure there are several critiques on this post and my ideas. Even if you don't like a single one, I think it's pretty clear that melee is missing something. Please enlighten me to any and everything I have incorrect in here, as any information I get here I can apply in game in an effort to make my melee experience more enjoyable and dynamic. Sorry for the lengthy post but I just want to get my thoughts out in the air. Again, criticism is welcome and correction is appreciated. Thanks for reading.

-Kash-

[mmatto]

Hi there,

good post and I agree to most points there. There were some inaccuracies and some issues are being already considered by Nevrax.

Critical hits affect condition based on hit location already but effect could be longer and/or criticals should occur more often. Improving criticals is under Nevrax consideration. There was also a table about hit locations and effects somewhere.

Some mob body parts have less armor, but it won't make enough difference to outweight hassle adjusting actions and insane credit cost for aimed strikes.

I have thought that parry bonus on shield equals to block.

Idea of getting new actions from quests (rites) is under development. Currently there is 12 rites that you can finish, but none give melee attack stanzas. I have always thought that future rites would give us some new actions like you proposed, but I cannot be sure about Nevrax's plans.

I think you missed problem that weapon modifiers to dodge/parry does not work for other weapons than 2h sword.

Dodge/parry effects:
http://www.ryzom.com/?page=news&id=793

[sehracii]

I agree on the general idea that melee is lacking creativity. Upping accurate attack and increase damage from lvl 1 to 250 is just dismal. Waiting for a "after" credit to lgiht up hardly makes things interesting. Some special skills like you described or other would be a very welcome addition.


Particularly I would like to agree that 1H and CC weapons are unfairly hindered by increased stamina usage due to their speed. I can understand that they shouldn't be balanced damage wise with a huge axe, but why should we have to use more stamina to do less damage?

[sprite]

Just two things from me...

- Criticals can cause loss of stamina (when used on a mob it uses its "special attacks" less

- Max +parry on heavy armour is +7 on each piece apparently

[b00ster1]

- Max +parry on heavy armour is +7 on each piece apparently

+4 now max on "boss armours" (+7 only on "old armours", looted before), and +2 is max "craftable" Parry bonus.

[g00st]

just a small idea also. i think the aim options should be great for ranged. ie "headshot". or leg shot to slow the mob. your right there pretty useless at the mo. Aim caster head might be interesting thou.

[mrshad]

Melee combat in most RPG games, not just this one, is less exciting than it could be. The 'attack after' and aimed shot stanzas are a good start, and developing those ideas into a truely exciting combat system will make SoR a much richer game.

I think the ability to chain aimed shot for increasingly more dammage would make melee combat a lot more interesting.

For example, a body shot (that should lower defenses from the head) followed by a head shot (which returns attention back to defending the head) followed by an attack to the legs could increase the amount of dammage inflicted, even if by a modest amount. That would give some value to the aim-shot stanzas and break melee fighters out of the "double click attack stanza and go get a drink" mindset.

Even better, in my view, would be to have diffent attack combinations be effective on different creatures or creature types...what works well on the quadrepeds wouls not work well on the kitin, for instance.

[rushin]

i used to play this great little rpg called Sudoken on my SNES, in it there were 50+ controlable chars u would pick up through the game. Lot's of them when used in a party together would have special team attacks.

The implementation in Sukoden was very complex but something simplier might work in SoR, with extra attack options available for teams with: 2 melee, ranged + melee, same race mages, etc, etc.

[kashius]

Hello again all. Thank you for the responses, corrections and insight.

Hi there, Critical hits affect condition based on hit location already but effect could be longer and/or criticals should occur more often. Improving criticals is under Nevrax consideration. There was also a table about hit locations and effects somewhere.

- I see. Upping critical chance is definitely a good thing, especially if it actually does something. Good to hear it's under consideration. About the +Parry on shield thing...good point.

Idea of getting new actions from quests (rites) is under development. Currently there is 12 rites that you can finish, but none give melee attack stanzas. I have always thought that future rites would give us some new actions like you proposed, but I cannot be sure about Nevrax's plans.

- Ah, that's good to hear. Wonder what types of attacks they are comtemplating. Exciting news.

I think you missed problem that weapon modifiers to dodge/parry does not work for other weapons than 2h sword.

- Do you mean only weapon that gets +Dodge/Parry is a 2H sword? Considering they put in being able to add to all weapon types, what is max dodge you can put on the weapon?

Thanks for the link to that page. From what I can gather: Either the +Parry/Dodge you can have (Especially Dodge) can go beyond the +2 per crafted piece...or you have to fight things 50 levels lower than you to achieve the effect.

- Melee combat in most RPG games, not just this one, is less exciting than it could be. The 'attack after' and aimed shot stanzas are a good start, and developing those ideas into a truely exciting combat system will make SoR a much richer game.
- I think the ability to chain aimed shot for increasingly more dammage would make melee combat a lot more interesting.
- For example, a body shot (that should lower defenses from the head) followed by a head shot (which returns attention back to defending the head) followed by an attack to the legs could increase the amount of dammage inflicted, even if by a modest amount. That would give some value to the aim-shot stanzas and break melee fighters out of the "double click attack stanza and go get a drink" mindset.
- Even better, in my view, would be to have diffent attack combinations be effective on different creatures or creature types...what works well on the quadrepeds wouls not work well on the kitin, for instance.

- Nice. Sounds almost like a state based combat idea. "If target is bleeding, you can do this for +X amount of damage". I like your thinking and hopefully something like this can be implemented in game using this games rather dynamic mechanics.

I gotta say this community is great. Although I had some pretty clear misinformation, I wasn't met with "STFU NOOB" and such. Like I said, I like this game a great deal and want it to develop into something that is accessible and fun to all styles of players. Thanks for the feedback...now, back to knifing it up. Daggers (Machetes) courtesy of Rushin

-Kash-

[mmatto]

- Do you mean only weapon that gets +Dodge/Parry is a 2H sword? Considering they put in being able to add to all weapon types, what is max dodge you can put on the weapon?

Yes, all other weapons that I have seen show 0 values for wielder and adversary dodge/parry mods. There was some strange explanation from devs why it is now that way but they were looking into fix that sooner or later. I find this important as it would be means to have more differences between weapons. Usual dodge/parry mod values that I have seen are at +-7 range but I don't really know.