By all and thx for the fun

[szoszi]

Only one comment:

My opinion is that using magic through a wall is not an expolit. It is in the game since the beginning, everyone - even npcs - uses it. It is a fundamental thing in the game, I can consider it as:

- feature in the game, the way things work, or
- fundamental design error, should have never made it into retail.

If we say it's a feature then the way we did the kitin nest is a map design error, but as long as the map gives us the opportunity to do that it has to be acceptable.

If we say it's a fundamental design error, why had Nevrax left in the game till now.

Saying that it's an exploit when I'm using it to reach my goals with thinking is simply unfair when everyone uses it in the game every day.

Is it an exploit that you pull out Aen? It's exactly the same, it wasn't designed to kill Aen (or any other mob) in that way.

So, I think the way Nevrax handling this situation is unfair, that's why I've left, not because I can't use an exploit.

bye,
blondy

[grimjim]

Cliffing was/is an exploit but was fixed in some areas.

At one point you could walk through the junk in outposts and hide in it, killing things with impunity. That was an exploit and later fixed.

So they haven't gotten around to fixing this one yet, it doesn't mean it isn't an exploit or a problem.

I still find this attitude really puzzling.

[mmatto]

I agree that Nevrax should make it impossible to exploit known bugs, preferrably by correcting bug. They have been fixing those exploits that have caused more complaints than this one. I hope they get this one fixed too as NPCs shooting trough mountains is quite annoying.

But still, Nevrax is just enforcing rules in EULA and similar bug exploitation rule is found in every mmorpg that I know.

EDIT: Just wanted to add that I have not been particularly pleased about speed of previous exploitation fixes either. (especially cliffing)

[thlau]

My opinion is that using magic through a wall is not an expolit. It is in the game since the beginning, everyone - even npcs - uses it.

I don't see the difference between using magic through walls, and NPCs shooting at you through a hill or several buildings. Its just one and the same.
The NPCs can't see me, but are still able to attack me.

I got shot the last time I got too near to Aens camp, without seeing any of the shooters.

[norvic]

Firing a projectile, ie a Ranged attack from a rifle etc, through a solid object is not logical and should get some attention fron the devs.

However using magic though object? this i beleive is open to debate, who are we to decide if a healer or off mage wasnt able to detect the life force of another being through a solid object and act according to their wishes. This is a game and does not necessarily have real life rules otherwise their would be no magic at all.

I have never knowingly used an exploit for personal gain and will never do so but in the case of the interpretation of magic versus a physical mass i think this is not a cut and dried area.

If magic was not designed to penetrate physical matter how does madness work? when it would be stopped at the skin, this line of thought can also be applied to virtually all heals or attacks, therefore showing that magic can indeed pass through a physical entity to have its effect.

[boinged]

A general rule to use when trying to figure out if something is an exploit is "could the mob hit me?", or maybe "if it had twice the hp could it hit me?".

Cliffing, trapping mobs on buildings or on the other side of walls all have an answer of a big NO and so in my book they ARE exploits.

Initiating combat (casting/taunting) with something you can't see is also a bit dodgy too IMHO although if an already-pulled mob wanders behind a tree before reaching you (and does reach you) then I doubt anyone expects you to stop casting while it walks round the other side

P.S. Seems a silly thing to leave over, you can't say your whole time ingame revolved around this one practice? There are plenty of other things to do and if you go there and hunt legitimately it will be ok.

[larwood]

Initiating combat (casting/taunting) with something you can't see is also a bit dodgy too IMHO....

Fair point, but what about corners.... if an aggro mob is just around the corner, it cant "see" you, but yet it comes attacking. So if the mob in a sense "engages with us without ever seeing us, can't we do the same? Even npc's with ranged attacks can and will shoot through walls... you can't expect someone to just stand there and die... because it's and exploit. (or should the GM's ban that NPC for exploing homins? hehe

[borg9]

...
P.S. Seems a silly thing to leave over, you can't say your whole time ingame revolved around this one practice? There are plenty of other things to do and if you go there and hunt legitimately it will be ok.

Yep there are loads of thing to do, try to work out a way of doing the samething without having a indistructable healer on the outside.

As for exploits:

To kill something in a way that is class as exploiting, doesn't make you an exploiter. Doing repeatedly and with the intent to gain by doing so does.

An example - you are stuck on a small isle in a lake on the bank of the lake are some aggro mobs. If you cast over the water and kill one of them to get a space on the bank to get away IMHO, doesn't make you and exploiter. However to stand on the isle and kill loads of these mobs to gain XP in an manor not in keeping with the game does.

Exploitation is more about your intent, than your actions. Healing through a wall is not the exploit (Its the problem). The exploit is to use this as a means to improve your character is.

[dazman76]

Fair point, but what about corners.... if an aggro mob is just around the corner, it cant "see" you, but yet it comes attacking. So if the mob in a sense "engages with us without ever seeing us, can't we do the same? Even npc's with ranged attacks can and will shoot through walls... you can't expect someone to just stand there and die... because it's and exploit. (or should the GM's ban that NPC for exploing homins? hehe

I think that's a slightly dubious connection No offence intended, of course

My point being that there are more senses available to both homin and kitin alike, such as sight, hearing and smell. I'm sure a 12-foot kitin has a keen sense of smell, and may also have more sensitive hearing (if they even hear at all!) There's a good chance they'd detect something several times smaller than them, and powerful creatures don't always think twice before investigating, even if it means rounding a corner

To 'aggro' around a corner is a different thing to actually attacking and causing damage around a corner, or through a wall.

With the magic thing - I think most people would be happy to put a limit of plausability on magic. For example, take the humble acid projectile. And let's say that it's 'super uber magick aciiiid', rather than 'your normal everyday real acid'. So it doesn't really behave like acid should. But still, it's a projectile, and you want to hit a target with it. So you're going to be 'throwing' this thing, one way or another. This is where the plausability kicks in for me - it's possible to make a magic projectile, and it's possible to throw it at an intended target. But surely it's not possible to get the projectile to go through a wall, yep get that bloke, oops no not him he just got in the way, aye that's the one *sizzle* *death*. If it was possible to do *that*, there'd be no casters left after a matter of days

I vote yes for "no attacks through any solid objects, including but not limited to walls, trees, the ground, and yubos". I vote yes for "big ugly mobs aggroing around corners, and any aforementioned solid objects (including but not limited to other big ugly mobs)". And last, but not least, I vote yes for "rambling on about something or other and taking a leaving post way off topic". So there.

[larwood]

And last, but not least, I vote yes for "rambling on about something or other and taking a leaving post way off topic". So there.

Hehe, a very good reply. Even if it is off topic...

But you never answered my NPC concern. Not just aggro around corners, but attacks. Magic or ranged by the NPC's.