Something more to consider

[grimjim]

"And If i wanted to Make up tales I would simply write one or read Mythology Not play a GAMe That Made Big promised and still waiting on delivery"

And many people are still here.

What's really missing?

The outposts.

That's it really.

And, as I said before if you were paying attention, there are two whole industries that make a living from providing the tools and imagination sparks for people TO make up tales.

I've fought off Kitin invasions, enjoyed my time in the Pyr baths relaxing with FIVE beautiful women, escorted desperate groups from one land to another, fought my way to the Kami Oasis, tried to decipher the glyphs on the gravestones around the lands, explored the prime roots, slain a kitin general and thwarted the plans of the twins, recovering ancient lore and artefacts in the process.

Have you just stood around waiting for something to be fed to you? You'll need to make your own fun regardless if there's a plethora of quests. That's why some people are drifting back from WoW, there's very little room for creativity there.

Do you want to be 'The homin who slew Kthynak the great Kitin overlord!' or do you want to be one of thousands who 'Slew Gimpion the Orc Bandit' just today?

By writing off creativity as not being something you pay for you're denying yourself all sorts of fun and dissing two whole industries.

[sprite]

enjoyed my time in the Pyr baths relaxing with FIVE beautiful women

I've seen you naked Jy, I doubt there are 5 women in all of atys who could stand it

[akm72]

I've seen you naked Jy, I doubt there are 5 women in all of atys who could stand it

I'm sure they were very, very, drunk...

[sprite]

I'm sure they were very, very, drunk...

Most likely... I've heard the Samsara have a secret stash of Aged Oflovak's Special Brew hidden somewhere

[madnak]

What's really missing?

The outposts.

That's it really.

How about player interaction?

And, as I said before if you were paying attention, there are two whole industries that make a living from providing the tools and imagination sparks for people TO make up tales.

Too bad they are so lacking in Ryzom.

Even in the most superficial hack-n-slash campaign of Dungeons and Dragons I've ever played, my PCs influenced the game world, interacted and formed relationships with significant NPCs, and changed the course of the story very dynamically based on their actions - and that's just a start. Needless to say, in more flexible systems this applies much more. In a game where the goal is more profound than "kill the goblins," the whole game environment becomes a collaborative creative effort and the course of everything is affected naturally and fluidly by character actions.

In Ryzom, character actions do not apply to the game world. Oh, we players can set up isolated contexts in which to role play, but the "GM" or "storyteller" in this game (that is mainly the devs, but also the support staff) will not allow us to interact with their world or their story. I am paying my monthly fee for a setting and a story - that I can influence. I have many great novels on my reading list when I want a setting and story that I can't influence.

Of course, everyone role-plays for different reasons, and if you're enjoying it that is fine. But the idea that nothing is lacking is a bit offensive to me. Go play a MOO, any MOO, and come back to Ryzom and tell me it's a "living world."

[grimjim]

>How about player interaction?

Plenty of players, especially since the server merge. I have no trouble finding people to play and interact with and I don't believe that I'm somehow 'special'. So make the effort.

>In Ryzom, character actions do not apply to the game world. Oh, we players >can set up isolated contexts in which to role play, but the "GM" or >"storyteller" in this game (that is mainly the devs, but also the support staff) >will not allow us to interact with their world or their story. I am >paying my monthly fee for a setting and a story - that I can influence. I >have many great novels on my reading list when I want a setting and story >that I can't influence.

No online game will really allow you, or rather will have the _capacity_ for you to truly influence the outcome of a storyline or _really_ modify the gameworld. At least in anything so big as this. Still, this is a stated goal for Ryzom so we'll just have to wait and see how things develop on that front.

Players, especially large groups of them, tend to have a habit of surprising you and going off on wild tangents. Often because online gaming worlds don't have the checks and balances of the real world that stop people going off the rails. In tabletop RPGs this is termed 'railroading', steering people into the plot and keeping things going by deus ex machina. If people to overtly defy what you're trying to do in the game you introduce some outside balancing force.

Computer games suffer because they're largely static and because AI just isn't that good yet. Without every NPC being played by a GM/Guide there is no way to have that level of interaction and feedback that you seem to desire, because of the size and because of the commercial nature of the operation. The comparison with MOO's and MUD's isn't an especially valid one, save for some commercial ones which suffer many of the same problems as the graphical MMOs. Smaller MUDs and MOO's can be more directly interactive and dynamic because they're much more small scale and because more people are playing key figures (gods, kings etc).

I've played MUDs, starting with Avalon over a 2600 modem attached to my old Atari ST, pre-internet. There as with just about anywhere else the major interaction comes with players.

There are your NPCs, there's your interaction. The other players. We CAN shape outcomes already by building our alliances, following our faiths, discussion, roleplay, trade agreements and everything else and these alliances etc will grow and take shape as Ryzom progresses.

You have to take a shift in mindset from that present in TTRPGs and single player CRPGs. You are no longer the one and only hero, you are not, necessarily, special or significant by yourself. Your actions may not shape the world unless tied in to those of others or unless you are lucky and or brave.

Yet everyone WANTS to be the hero of their own personal story.

Other games have dealt with this by making everyone powerful/significant as in City of Heroes or The Matrix but that's precisely the thing that's turned me off from those games.

What's the point of being a Superhero if EVERYONE is a Superhero? If your magnificent deeds are replicated by every other chump around?

How many ships and crews were there in the Matrix? 10? Maybe four runners each? Now you want me to take part in a game of 1000's of players, thousands of Matrix warriors all repeating the same tasks and I'm somehow supposed to extract the same sensation of being 'The One' or a badass Matrix warrior in that context?

Ryzom seems to have taken a different path, by and large your actions ARE significant and the only sop cast to people who can't see beyond the dull and conventional MMORPG set up so far has been the bandit bosses who, while carrying desirable items are now as dull as wheat, to be farmed. Killing them has become only significant in terms of the advantage the armour provides.

I earnestly hope they don't bend too far the pressures from people trying to make the game just like all the others. I'm confident a different approach is needed and can do very well. WoW has made its mark by doing the same old same old, with a bit of spit and polish (D&D3.0 style), but there's still room for something stylish, different and inventive.

[madnak]

There are a number of solutions being considered currently by many designers, theorists, and authors. There are some people who dismiss the interactive narrative as an impossibility, that is true. I think they're full of it. The introduction of every new medium, particularly the really powerful and catalyzing ones, inspires a lot of nay-saying.

It is true that no other large-scale game is willing to take the risk of implementing these risky but promising narrative strategies. And neither is Ryzom. I don't see how Ryzom is different or inventive. In fact, I don't see how this game has taken any creative risks at all. In fact, it seems to me that Nevrax has bent over backwards to avoid risk. There are many different players playing this game with completely different or even contradictory motivations. And they aren't even willing to tell us how this game is going to work. The fact is, if there is a major PvP focus, this game will not meet my needs. Period. And if my ideal Ryzom were implemented, many other players would be out. But whenever we try to put the developers on the spot and get them to make a commitment, they give us weak contradictory answers or none at all. Concrete commitments from the devs hardly even exist.

It is possible to construct a story with a different theme depending on the point of view. It is possible to create a story where the protagonist depends on the reader. This can be done in a static sense very easily; take an emotionally charged situation involving a handful of people, and write narratives for each character involved. In that character's narrative, he is the hero. But in another character's narrative, he may play a minor role. I have read books about Vietnam in which the soldiers, the protesters, even the administration have been presented as heroic. Which is the "true" version? I don't even care, the point is that it's possible to view the situation from a number of meaningful angles.

With an interactive medium we can let the player choose who the hero of the story is, the player's actions can determine the theme and message as well as the style and atmosphere. The core "realities" might be constant, but how those realities look can vary considerably. Of course, this is a static story delivered in an interactive form. At the moment our ability to implement truly dynamic stories is limited, but limited doesn't mean nonexistent.

Would it be nice for Saiwin to be a hero? Sure. But that's not what I'm asking for. I'm saying if 50 players get together and assault a kitin nest, killing the queen - that should make a difference. Even if it's all scripted, that would be disappointing but still different. The idea isn't for players to all have extreme significance in every context, but rather to let players choose what role they will play. In a story like this one, the roles are all predefined. What if a character had wanted to join Desann, or if a large group of players decided to sabotage the efforts of the main group? Even in such a black-and-white setting, we don't so much as get to choose sides. We kill off the NPC "enemies" (why are they our enemies? Because that's how the event was scripted) and then "we" win the day.

This is what I dislike about other MMORPGs. What if I don't want to play this role or that role? It is easy enough to at least create the illusion of control - most single player games are on solid rails, but your character has dialogue options and minor choices that make him feel like he's the driving force. In Ryzom that isn't true. Even the simple "there are three ways you can complete this rite, each one will result in a slightly different reward and help you to develop your character" isn't here. How hard is that? I could script that kind of scenario with my eyes closed. It doesn't have to be epic. I find a person's wallet on the street; do I keep the wallet or return it? Not earth-shattering, but it's a real choice and it will affect both my character and the character to whom I am returning the wallet. So even though it is minor, it is significant.

One thing I like about superheroes is that they can all be different, they can all coexist in the same world, and yet they can all be the ultimate heroes of their own stories. Each comic book superhero has his strengths and weaknesses, none is (no offense to fanboys) the BEST superhero. Or, they are ALL the best. Each has his own unique styles, agendas, issues, and methods. I don't respect a person because they are better than everyone else. I respect people because they've actualized themselves, they have created something original and beautiful. And I would prefer it if every single person did that. I firmly believe that everyone has that potential - I've had in-depth conversations with beggars, factory workers, businessmen, artists, and scholars - and each one of them had something to teach me and some quality I could respect.

One of the essential things I think we've lost in our mythologies is the idea that you can be "The One" without being the one.

This game may be a perfect match for your desires and motivations. But that doesn't mean those of us complaining lack creativity or aren't trying hard enough or are just plain stupid or anything else. There is something we're looking for in this game that isn't there. And we very much want it to be there, or we wouldn't get so frustrated. That "thing" isn't necessarily the same for all of us, but we are motivated to play this game for different reasons, and just because someone's motivation isn't that same as yours doesn't necessarily mean that they're not paying attention.

[sprite]

*idly wonders if Jy has started quoting his book yet*

[borguk]

(am in a very silly mood today, so sorry)

Goes to look for the post that says the server is always down for patches and when its do its like down for hours and I am playing for this time.

*evol grin*

Edit for constructiveness

http://ryzom.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12634

The above link explains why there have been no major content patches.
We the community have backed this by staying with the game. Those who didn't accept this or were not willing to wait till Chapter 3 is realase have either:

1. Going forever, never to return
2. Going to play something else and check back everynow and then
3. Stayed with the game and grumbled to themsleves
4. Stayed with the game and post misleading and inaccurate post base on no foundation of fact.

Im at point 2 on the list

[dazman76]

And the same here Een...