It's been 2 weeks since the new tools

[zumwalt]

Cerest, maybe here in lies the solution to the other guide programs post UO lawsuite, the current systems in place by the mmo's I was a guide in had a system inplace to guard the company from a lawsuite, part of the system was the liazon group creation and what its guidlines are.

Compensation to the guides was through the ability to play the game freely through there guide account, if promoted from a guide in training to full guide, there play account was also free to them as long as they remained the the guide program.

The 'contract' you sign to become a guide states that is the only thing you get as being a guide.

As far as the topic at hand, What is Takashi's take on the delay on the use of the tools, is it mainly do to training and learning them, or is it do to lack of players in game?

[systemv]

Raynes, please read Neun's post in this threat. It's nr. 36, 3 posts back.
As he stated there, its a player & guide co-operation.

If you want something like it, help the guides on the NA-server to organize it, instead of waiting and yelling nothing is organized. Also as Neun writes, it's not hard to organize it yourself and for examples / ideas you can look at the Aripostle-thread.

We have no guides. This is not an exageration. The reason for it has been posted several times in this thread. We have people with glowing sticks willing to get us unstuck from walls and we have an event manager that's trying to do his best working alone. We know the problem, we empathize, we're even trying to fix it on our own(Saiwin especially). Doesn't change the fact that there is a problem and a lack of official events.

[thexdane]

Cerest, maybe here in lies the solution to the other guide programs post UO lawsuite, the current systems in place by the mmo's I was a guide in had a system inplace to guard the company from a lawsuite, part of the system was the liazon group creation and what its guidlines are.

Compensation to the guides was through the ability to play the game freely through there guide account, if promoted from a guide in training to full guide, there play account was also free to them as long as they remained the the guide program.

The 'contract' you sign to become a guide states that is the only thing you get as being a guide.

As far as the topic at hand, What is Takashi's take on the delay on the use of the tools, is it mainly do to training and learning them, or is it do to lack of players in game?

well the thing is you can sign anything you want in a contract, wether or not that's legal is another thing. a contract or any other agreement you sign cannot change the law but only improve on it

here's an example, if min wage is $5/hr a company can't have you agree to accepting a min of $4.50/hr, they can however get you to accept $6/hr.

now as for the guide situation, a $15/month account is NOT adequete compensation for the amount of work that is being done. this is why UO got sued and why all mmorpg's have stopped having guides in the states.

so therein lies the problem, they aren't being paid enough for the amount of work they have to do and no contract you sign has much legal grounds to stand on as there has been a court case and therefore precedence.

[zumwalt]

*shrugs*
UO was one of the first MMO's that had guides, up until then, there was nothing to deem unfair.

UO got slammed, and has since fixed this issue, other mmo's took heed as to what happened to UO years ago, and created a workable solution.

You can't compare now adays what the definition of guide is to what UO had as guides back in the day.

EQ had contracts for guides within a year after they went live and created a workable guide program, as I mentioned above.

You can't compare apples (current guide systems) to oranges (UO ancient guide system that got sued)

There not the same.

As far as what is going on with the tools, only Takashi can post here to tell us his update on what the tools are going to offer us as far as playtime and quests on our server.

[thexdane]

*shrugs*
UO was one of the first MMO's that had guides, up until then, there was nothing to deem unfair.

UO got slammed, and has since fixed this issue, other mmo's took heed as to what happened to UO years ago, and created a workable solution.

You can't compare now adays what the definition of guide is to what UO had as guides back in the day.

EQ had contracts for guides within a year after they went live and created a workable guide program, as I mentioned above.

You can't compare apples (current guide systems) to oranges (UO ancient guide system that got sued)

There not the same.

As far as what is going on with the tools, only Takashi can post here to tell us his update on what the tools are going to offer us as far as playtime and quests on our server.

actually it's the exact same thing, guides do A, B and C on all the games, while in eq it might be called one thing compared to uo, fundementally it's the same thing in the eyes of the law, which would be why they don't have guides on american hosted servers

[zumwalt]

Lets just leave this thread to waiting for Takashi to respond.

As far as UO and setting precidence, Its been a few years since that incident and I am still fuzzy on the outcome, but in the end I do believe the company won against the individuals sueing.

How do I know this?
Here are a few back articles that give more facts:
http://www.gamespy.com/articles/492/492177p1.html
http://www.cdmag.com/articles/011/073/uo_lawsuit_update.html
http://www.cdmag.com/articles/014/135/ultima.html

First article shows initial year of lawsuit and what the definition of volenteer is, second shows how many people they were up to, third shows the final result.

I can't find my other articles right now on this subject, but the onlything that came out of it, is that ultimately its the company that will win, not the individual in these circumstances about a volentary job.

[fadin]

Hi Everyone,

I thought I would jump in to help the situation (possibly enflame it) with some information.

Zumwalt, you were looking for someone else in the or a guide program. You found him. I was in the EQ guide program for an extended period, as well as a Senior Guide in the program. What can I say, I am a glutton for punishment.

In order to get perspective, you have to remember; What you do as a guide does not always equate to what can be done by law. As long as nobody complains, it isn't an issue. However, some places decide to avoid the possibility of that complaint. EQ had their guide program before launch,and SOE took 'control' of the guide program sometime after launch. They were full steam prior to the UO issue.

The rules, in the U.S., governing a "volunteer" can be everything from not being able to ask for reports, not being able to tell them how to do their jobs, , offering *zero* compensation, must be self contained, cannot be reviewed, cannot be scheduled, etc. I know for a fact there are a lot of those in other programs. There have been many precedents made over the years which have made some areas a lot easier to deal with, but it is still a very shady area. A lot of companies are better off without the program(s).

All of that being said; I love guides, volunteers, and anyone willing to dedicate their time to better the game or help enhance (in a positive way) the play experience of fellow players. This often leads to empowered player programs which can often allow players to participate in CS or event programs. These programs are highly restrictive, and there solely to allow the players to "help out" in certain ways. This can be via a special queue or allowing players to act a role in an event with absolutely no special powers or toys.

Events: Takashi isn't within eyeview right now, but I would rather let him fill you in on anything events related. I can say he got the tools later than the European shards, and is on a self learning curve. Being the smart guy he is, I am sure he is through all that already and on his way to planning some good stuff.

I doubt this helps much, but I wanted to give you any insight I may have.

Best regards,

[zumwalt]

Thanks Fadin, I know you seniors had to go through more punishment paperwork wise then regulars, I am just glad they removed us from the petition que so we could actually have fun

I look forward to Takashi's response, as I know so many others do also.

edit: just dawned on me someone might chime in and say something with regards to your timetable about after UO incident and where soe stands with not getting guides and what not

I was in the program until as late as october / november 2004, which is 4 years after the UO incident, that should quelch that arguement before it arises anyhow.

[Takashi]

Hello folks. Where to begin...

First and foremost, I have the tools, I am learning them, and in the process I have been working out ideas for more events utilizing them. I haven't mastered them, they are wonderfully complicated, which means they can do a lot too. But this also means that I can't just sit down and press the "go" button. I appreciate your patience while I figure these things out. Basically, I'm fixing the patch(just an analogy, there's no patch) before it goes live, I don't want to rush things and jeopardize the stability of the shard. That being said, there are still plans for events that don't utilize all of the features of the new tools.

As I have mentioned on the events board, the stage is being set for the next run of in depth events, which will be kicking off any day now. I hope the smaller events I've held have at least helped soothe the worries, but it's time to start something bigger.

On a similar note, I will see what I can do to find new ways to promote the events to help boost awareness, as well as try to find better ways to relate the events after the fact. There have been a lot of really cool events, but I understand if you weren't there, and you don't know about them, you can't exactly appreciate them.

Finally, concerning guides. Hesperos has been invaluable in running events, and working behind the scenes with me to make sure that everything runs smoothly. So although we don't have a whole team of guides, Hesperos ought to get some recognition for their continued involvement in the events process.

To summarize: I am learning the tools, but I don't want to break the server. There are events right around the corner to satisfy your thirst for entertainment. We have a Guide, Hesperos, who deserves to be showered with praises for being such a tremendous help in the events process and being able to put up with me for extended periods of time.

I hope this helps clear up any misconceptions, and assuage some of the concerns for the state of events on Windermeer. Thanks for the feedback as well, it's good to get an idea of your concerns, since the events I do, I do for you.

Cheers!
Takashi
Ryzom GM
Windermeer Events Team

[thexdane]

take your time man


glad you're taking your time to learn it and learn how not to break the server


tho i might suggest hiring raynes the super genius, as he can learn tools like this and get events going in under 2 weeks. someone like him would be a great bane to health of the server


doh i think i meant to say boon, not bane