Suggestions for ranged fighting

[raynes]

Thats to logical and makes to much sense.
Why follow the information that is based on the ruleset of the races, why bother putting into the game dynamics that would protray information about the kami / karavan?

Why make it so that only the karavan vendors cary weapons and ammo, and only the kami carry magic scrolls to learn by, that suggests that only the kami teach magic and only the karavan teach weapondry.

There is not much point in being logical, 100% of the player base can learn 100% of the skill base.

There is no need to balance, when there is no balance, its all the same.

It's very sad but true. Changing ranged to be a Karavan only thing wouldn't be a problem as it's not really used and pretty worthless as is. But you can't change magic, too many players have built that up. Maybe the solution is a combination of something you suggested long ago and what asaseth suggested above. Introduce two new skill trees that can only be accessed accordng to fame levels. Each color change in fame would mean a jump in the available skills. For the Kami you have magic based upon nature (pulling lightning from the sky, creating wind and sand storms, floods and so on) and for the Karavan the ability to create devices to improve upon existing weapons. Of course the devices and magic wouldn't be limited to combat things. If your fame drops, so does the ability to use the things corresponding to that level.

[madnak]

I like that idea. There's no reason to remove abilities already in the game, but you could have some new abilities that only the kami could use and some only the karavan could use. And maybe some to compensate the neutral.

[thexdane]

well the thing is ranged and magic should NOT have any damage similarities, it should be ranged and melee combat

if you can say that ranged is borked cause it doesn't do as much damage as a mage, then well ALL melee is borked.

as of right now, ranged and melee do roughly the same amount of damage, however if you use the hit rate, ranged actually does more damage

before you go off on how wrong i am, as i'm sure that i will be, i'll explain how and why

take a melee person at lvl 150 and they can do 700hp damage per hit and attack ever 2 seconds

now a ranged fighter at lvl 150 and they do 500hp damage and with the hit rate stanza they hit every 1.5 seconds

so while the ranged fighter does "less" initial damage over time the ranged person will do the same if not more

here's the math laid out

1 second no damage
1.5 second 500 range
2 second 700 melee
3 second 500 + 500 = 1000 range
4 second 700 + 700 = 1400 melee
4.5 second 1000 + 500 = 1500 range
6 second 1400 + 700 = 2100 melee, 1500 + 500 = 2000 range
7.5 second 2000 + 500 = 2500 range
8 second 2100 + 700 = 2800 melee
9 second 2500 + 500 = 3000 range
10 second 2800 + 700 = 3500 melee
10.5 second 3000 + 500 = 3500 range
12 second 3500 + 500 = 4000 range, 3500 + 700 = 4200 melee

so after 12 seconds there's only 200hp in damage and if you keep going, yes range will eventually do the same if not more damage

now magic does more damage and is horribly unbalanced with melee, like i can't solo a mob that a mage can at equal lvl if i use melee or i get no xp from a mob and yet i can almost die from fighting them

i think that range is alright but could use some improvements, thing is most ppl don't do the math of timing, they just see that range does x amount and melee does y amount and x < y so range doesn't do as much but range hits 5 times for melee's 3

same thing goes for hunting mobs, ppl see the this mobs gives us 3k xp but takes us a while to kill but these mobs give us 2k but easy to kill

so go ahead and flame me, i'm expecting it cause i'm going against what ppl say and defending the game a bit

[hunter17]

My suggestion is to only allow people who are aligned with the Karavan to use guns. But then again only Kami followers should be allowed to use magic. And I doubt either will happen.

That's completely ridiculous, so now i have wasted 115 range levels trying to be a good Kami side player, now i have to turn to the dark side and kill any innocent npc's i see? what about the aggro npc's, can i never make peace? The game is clearly fine how it is as every player can use almost anything he wants, limiting to races is just sick. If any bonus is given to a weapon, it should be that the Karavan's would hit more base damage, while the Kami's could give defensive bonuses and such through special enchantments by completing rites, restricting guns to Kami is just...not a good idea.

[hunter17]

well the thing is ranged and magic should NOT have any damage similarities, it should be ranged and melee combat

if you can say that ranged is borked cause it doesn't do as much damage as a mage, then well ALL melee is borked.

as of right now, ranged and melee do roughly the same amount of damage, however if you use the hit rate, ranged actually does more damage

before you go off on how wrong i am, as i'm sure that i will be, i'll explain how and why

take a melee person at lvl 150 and they can do 700hp damage per hit and attack ever 2 seconds

now a ranged fighter at lvl 150 and they do 500hp damage and with the hit rate stanza they hit every 1.5 seconds

so while the ranged fighter does "less" initial damage over time the ranged person will do the same if not more

here's the math laid out

1 second no damage
1.5 second 500 range
2 second 700 melee
3 second 500 + 500 = 1000 range
4 second 700 + 700 = 1400 melee
4.5 second 1000 + 500 = 1500 range
6 second 1400 + 700 = 2100 melee, 1500 + 500 = 2000 range
7.5 second 2000 + 500 = 2500 range
8 second 2100 + 700 = 2800 melee
9 second 2500 + 500 = 3000 range
10 second 2800 + 700 = 3500 melee
10.5 second 3000 + 500 = 3500 range
12 second 3500 + 500 = 4000 range, 3500 + 700 = 4200 melee

so after 12 seconds there's only 200hp in damage and if you keep going, yes range will eventually do the same if not more damage

now magic does more damage and is horribly unbalanced with melee, like i can't solo a mob that a mage can at equal lvl if i use melee or i get no xp from a mob and yet i can almost die from fighting them

i think that range is alright but could use some improvements, thing is most ppl don't do the math of timing, they just see that range does x amount and melee does y amount and x < y so range doesn't do as much but range hits 5 times for melee's 3

same thing goes for hunting mobs, ppl see the this mobs gives us 3k xp but takes us a while to kill but these mobs give us 2k but easy to kill

so go ahead and flame me, i'm expecting it cause i'm going against what ppl say and defending the game a bit

First of all, range misses quite a bit on higher level mobs, second have you completely ignored stamina and action malus? With my current hitrate stanza, i find myself constantly out of stamina and teammates complain about draining the healers from healing the _melee_ which is currently being compared to
As for armor, if you want to tell me to use less stamina then i must use light armor, correct? and if range and melee should be equal then heavy armor would be the correct choice, either way range is disadvantaged due to high action malus or incredibly low protection factor
the rate and damage of melee if you claim it is a lot more equal is a lot safer on the stamina because it's nice and slow and also good damage dealing, opposed to me using hitrate draining extreme stamina and 1/5 of what a melee fighter is doing

[raynes]

That's completely ridiculous, so now i have wasted 115 range levels trying to be a good Kami side player, now i have to turn to the dark side and kill any innocent npc's i see? what about the aggro npc's, can i never make peace? The game is clearly fine how it is as every player can use almost anything he wants, limiting to races is just sick. If any bonus is given to a weapon, it should be that the Karavan's would hit more base damage, while the Kami's could give defensive bonuses and such through special enchantments by completing rites, restricting guns to Kami is just...not a good idea.

Instead of going off the deep end, please read my follow up post. It's obvious that it's impossible to limit ranged and magic to the Kami and Karavan alignments. Too many people have invested too much time in them. In the follow up I suggested that 2 new skill trees become available based upon fame. The Kami one dealing with magic dealing with the forces of nature and the Karavan one being the building and usage of devices to improve the effects of equipment. I also suggested that people must maintain fame to use the skills. So if you reached the highest fame level and were able to use special magic then when and killed your Kami fame, you would no longer be able to use those skills.


As for limits being "sick". No matter if this suggestion is ever taken seriously there is going to be a time when there are going to be race and faction based skills. They have said that all along.

[blaah]

i think that range is alright but could use some improvements, thing is most ppl don't do the math of timing, they just see that range does x amount and melee does y amount and x < y so range doesn't do as much but range hits 5 times for melee's 3

hehe.. and you forgot about ammo... ammo does no regen.. if you out then you out and dps drops to 0

try kiting Doren using ranged

[hunter17]

Instead of going off the deep end, please read my follow up post. It's obvious that it's impossible to limit ranged and magic to the Kami and Karavan alignments. Too many people have invested too much time in them. In the follow up I suggested that 2 new skill trees become available based upon fame. The Kami one dealing with magic dealing with the forces of nature and the Karavan one being the building and usage of devices to improve the effects of equipment. I also suggested that people must maintain fame to use the skills. So if you reached the highest fame level and were able to use special magic then when and killed your Kami fame, you would no longer be able to use those skills.


As for limits being "sick". No matter if this suggestion is ever taken seriously there is going to be a time when there are going to be race and faction based skills. They have said that all along.

when you say skill trees, how would this relate to fame? and having 2 seperate is redundant if this idea does go through (i dont hate it, just the way you put it first disappointed me) one will be empty while the other one is full, i doubt you will be favorable to both sides

[glipe]

What about them? If they wanted to learn magic they would have to become friendly with the Kami or use guns they would have to align with the Karavan. You don't honestly expect that a neutral person will always have the ability to learn and do the same things as people who align themselves with a group, do you? Or let me guess, it's not fair to the people who remain neutral. Well the people who actual dedicated themselves to a group should be treated better than those who don't make a choice. I mean when you join a group you should have benefits from that group that others do not get.

In answer to your question, yes, I do honestly expect that a neutral person should have the ability to learn the same things as people who align themselves with a group. Fine if they have to gain Kami or Karavan fame to gain access to certain skills or abilities but after they have done so they should be able to do exactly the same with the opposite faction and not lose what they have gained. Why do you assume that neutral players have not made a choice? Some neutral players just have stong enough wills that they are not swayed by "gods" and choose their own path.

there is going to be a time when there are going to be race and faction based skills. They have said that all along.

They have said that they would like to implement racial differences yes but I don't think that's going to happen for a long time yet. I don't remember anything about faction based skills though?

[lyrah68]

Not to hijack this thread...but to continue with the idea of Magick versus Technology.
As I see it, in real life there is "practical" magick (kitchen witch, herbal magicak, druid etc) and then there is HIGH or ceremonial magick. The practical witches that I know do tend to be more earthy, and tend to garden and camp and hug trees from time to time, and they prefer to meditate out of doors. And the Ceremonial magicians or Magi tend to prefer more formal indoors ceremonies. But I have never met a witch or mage in real life that felt that technology would limit their energy usage.

I used to see things the way you do, until I met a few and asked questions.


Now... back to the topic, I think that the guns of each faction would develope differently.

Karavan would be more precise, more nuts and bolts so to speak.

And Kami would be more of the "alchemy" of explosives and bright flashes and all (more of a middle ages Chinese fire works, BANG SPARKLE~ )

I would say that magick does not have to be anti techno, but it would color the outcome of the spell and the intent of the spell crafter.

I love that idea! It would give homins are reason to really choose a side. The story does clearly say that the Kami thought homins the use of magic, and the Karavan thought homins the use of technology. It doesn't make much sense that a Karavan follower could use magic just as well as a Kami follower could. Though I'd say allow both sides to develop both skills up to a certain level, say 150, so that people don't have to choose a side right away. Ofcourse, ranged fight would have to be just as good as elemental magic, and they'd also need new technology based skills to replace healing and affliction magic.

But I'm dreaming, such a thing should've been implemented right from the start. Implementing it now would be unfair to all the Karavan-aligned magicians.