Shame On You!!!

[tetra]

Nice post pita

This reminds me of a little corner shop/convenience store I used to live near (we're talking over 10 years ago here, but the same applies today I'm sure). I remember going in to buy some snacks, and the particular snack I was buying had the 'recommended' price printed on the packaging itself, which we see a lot in the UK market. However, the shop owner had stuck his own little price tag on there, which was a few pence more. I noticed that, and instantly thought 'you sly dog '. However, since I wasn't going to walk 1/2 mile further to get the same snack at a few pence cheaper, I bought it.

I'm not a sucker, and I'm not a fool However, I wanted that snack, I wanted it there and then, and I had the extra few pence to spend on it.

This also comes close to the 'buy 2 get the 3rd free' marketing ploy. By showing you that money can be saved by buying several items, a market can blind you to the fact that you only really need 1 or 2, but hey, since you'll save some money you may as well get the third, you'll use it eventually won't you?

Sales and marketing - they can be filthy and dirty, but everyone needs them

Looking forward to Haddo's responses on this thread

Cheer for his attempts to make it seem like he's "adding something" to the game all you want... but it doesn't change the fact that this is not just about haddo's stuff being resold at higher prices. Haddo's stuff just happens to be one of the few things that everyone of every class on the NA server, as well as a few other servers, know about specifically being nicely priced and good. There are plenty of other folks who do not like seeing leeches exploiting folks off things that they put on the market at a specific price for a reason. Page one has a mention of one that is not haddo's jewels...

[vinka]

Lol Dazeman...

But the real question is: Did you let that dirty rotten shop keeper escape with his life?

Hey, ty. I was honestly expecting a truck load of death threats, so am really glad yours was the first response.

now, about your comment about sales and marketing... you better watch out, or I'll have special snickers wrappers made that have the suggested sales price over inflated, so the shop keeper can put a lower sticker price on it, making you think you just got a great deal! HA, take that!

I know it is hard to believe, but most sales people are really kind, sweet people, that are doing their best to earn our business. The lowly few that lie and mislead have given us all a bad rap. Car sales people come to mind? In the states, they are on the top of the "evil incarnate" list of sales people. However, I know a few good ones that I buy all my cars from, with confidence.

I personally sell solutions and not so much in the products field. If my client has an issue ot problem that needs resolving, I help develope a solution that meets their needs. The pricing of that solution is entirely based on meeting my minimum profit requirements and any additional perceived value to the client.

Sometimes two solutions that are very similar in type and costs can sell for huge differences, based on the value it brings to the client. If I sell a solution for 500k to client A, which has a ROI of 750k over the next 2 years, it was good for client A. If I then sell a very similar solution to client B, which turns an 8m ROI over 2 years, I may charge 4m for it and the client is giving me rave reviews. So, I made an extra 3.5m profit and the client's ROI is much greater than client A.

Is there such a thing as win win?

There is one draw back to that scenario: My competitor didn't get the deal and goes home cranky. prolly tells his wife that he lost cause I raised my skirt or something.

Sorry, this really has nothing to do with the original post now. get me talking and you can't stop me!

Thanks again

-Pita

[vinka]

Cheer for his attempts to make it seem like he's "adding something" to the game all you want... but it doesn't change the fact that this is not just about haddo's stuff being resold at higher prices. Haddo's stuff just happens to be one of the few things that everyone of every class on the NA server, as well as a few other servers, know about specifically being nicely priced and good. There are plenty of other folks who do not like seeing leeches exploiting folks off things that they put on the market at a specific price for a reason. Page one has a mention of one that is not haddo's jewels...

Yep, I exploit all products from all lands..

Good grief Tetra. Are you really saying you want a fixed, flat, stale market? It would kill Ryzom if you did. The market MUST remain fluid. Give me free will over predestiny I say! I want to live, not be told to exist.

When mobs move, do you get pissed, or excited? I like change, flux, excitement. I'm not sure you realize how much research into living dynamics Nevrax put into MMOs. ALL the others I have played go months or years before mobs change and frankly is gets dull real fast.

Nevrax, PLEASE don't let your markets go stale. Keep up the good work

Tetra, if you don't like how the market works, you don't have to use it. I suggest avoiding it completely for a week. No selling mats, no selling crafts. Buy nothing and handle everything just within your guild, or hawk your goods on a street corner for hours at a time.

The market will be looking pretty sweet in a week.

I think it is also important for you to have a talk with a GM or two and tell them about the bug/exploit that lets players buy and resell. Please come back and post their responses.

-Pita

[borg9]

I have had great pleasure in reading this thread ......

I am from over the pond on a different server to you guys, so hey KOS me if you don't like what I am about to say.

It appears that a player/a number of players have seen that Haddo 'master jeweller' has been selling his wears to a limited market for resonable prices.

These players have found that they can buy these items and resell them in other locations for more dapper.

It also appears that some players see this a wrong.

Facts as I see them:

If someone will buy jewels made by Haddo, sold by someone else for more money than Haddo would charge, then this can be easily sorted by market economy.

1. Haddo raises his prices, to the same if not greater price than the reseller. (Haddo wins on all counts, potential profit earned by resellers is reduced/removed)

2. Haddo floods the market with jewels at the same price that they are currently sold. (Haddo wins, players win, resellers won't buy and resell in a flooded market)

3. If Haddo can't reach the lands where the resell is selling, Haddo needs to get out more. The reseller is doing Haddo a favour, free advertising and he doesn't even have to pay transport costs. A buyer in the other land, who can travel will seek out haddo, not the reseller for their next purchase.

4. Someone else craft jewels, the demand is great and there is a monopoly ... great opportunity for the hard worker.

5. Only buy jewels made by Haddo, sold by Haddo.

I am a crafter so, I expect my stuff to be bought and resold, it doesn't cause me any issues at all. They are infact doing me a favour by speading the word about my crafting skills.

The kill on sight stuff sounds to me like jealousy, either player is annoyed that they can't make the jewels and the money or they wish they had had the idea and feel they have missed out on something.

Haddo - is not lossing anything, infact he is able to sell more stuff faster as a result (he gets what he wanted to charge), but now has more than 128 slots to do it with.

Profiteer - will only make money while the customers still buy the stuff, when they do stop, so will there profit.

Buy the sounds of it more players are getting access to jewels and therefore an imporved gaming experince.

Hope this make sense to you

[iphdrunk]

These players have found that they can buy these items and resell them in other locations for more dapper.

Although I agree with most of your post, the way I have *understood* the issue and the main problem here, and without stating myself who/why/when/right/wrong hearsay etc., the (by some players) unacceptable behaviour is actually buying all available items and reselling them at a higher price at the same market.

I am not saying this is what happened, for I did not see it, just what some players consider "wrong". You say you craft armor, imagine that you craft 10 vests and sell them at 10k each. Then I buy all of them and resell them at 20k. It is true that you, as a crafter, may be fine, for you actually sold your items and you got your money, and that you no longer own them, but those players that would have bought them at 10k no longer can, and I have added no value.

I agree that this problem will naturally go away as soon as Haddo resumes selling jewels and selling at the usual price, so the market will regulate itself. But you can't help this being perceived as wrong by the community.

[borg9]

Although I agree with most of your post, the way I have *understood* the issue and the main problem here, and without stating myself who/why/when/right/wrong hearsay etc., the (by some players) unacceptable behaviour is actually buying all available items and reselling them at a higher price at the same market.

I am not saying this is what happened, for I did not see it, just what some players consider "wrong". You say you craft armor, imagine that you craft 10 vests and sell them at 10k each. Then I buy all of them and resell them at 20k. It is true that you, as a crafter, may be fine, for you actually sold your items and you got your money, and that you no longer own them, but those players that would have bought them at 10k no longer can, and I have added no value.

I agree that this problem will naturally go away as soon as Haddo resumes selling jewels and selling at the usual price, so the market will regulate itself. But you can't help this being perceived as wrong by the community.

So let me get this correct,
-Haddo lists his jewels
-Person X buys all these jewels
-Person X lists all these jewels at price + y% markup
-players by person X's jewels made by Haddo for more money.

I guess the real issue here is that Haddo is around to see that all his items sold at once. If he was, he would restock the merchacts, thus killing the markup of Person X.

Now if Haddo is not around to relist more items, then Person X is only going to make money once on this batch and will have to wait for Haddo to return to repeat the same pratice. Short term gain.

I have to say unless the profit is in the region of around 4000-5000% there are many fast and more effective ways to make money.

Crafting any stuff yourself will net loads of money and I am talking low lvl not the 150+ crafting, I was making money from the moment I started crafting (Mob mats and Harvested, self sourced as there is a real problem with the value of a mat compared to an item made from the mat)

Life Real and Game is full of middle men/women:

Travel agents
Car sales
Supermarkets
etc

The middle men take the risk that the item they buy and resell with actually sell! if it doesn't sell the loss is huge compared to the potential profit.

If all markups were completely removed from the game, the following would happen:

-No one would craft as the materials that go into the item are worth more than the item.
-All trading would be done via private sale (hey thats how it was before we had merchant NPCs)
-No one would buy materails, so no one would collect them
-As there is no need to hunt anymore and no one has any equipment to go hunting in the world would stop turning.

Of course then above wouldn't happen, because guilds would supply their crafters and take the equipment in exchange. So in the long run the only people who would suffer are non-guilded players (the future players of the game).

As for the +10k for no value add .....

1. They now carry the risk, not me the crafter ... I can use the money to level and make better stuff.
2. I get my money faster so my life is improved.
3. If the market will stand items at 100% markup on the crafter, the craft has their prices wrong (too cheap).
4. As for players losing out .... if they can afford the item at 100% markup and get good use out of the item then I don't see how they have lost anything..... what else is there to spend dapper on other than equipment and storage?

I hope Haddo read this thread and increases his prices, this will encourage other crafters to make jewels (huge profits overcome the grind feeling). As more jewel crafters exist the market will flood and rebalance the price. The 'profiteers' would get a look in! They can only do what they do because Haddo has a monopoly.

Don't kill the profiteer, kill their profit ..... if theres no money easy money to be made they will be forces to do something much more fun than collect dapper by relisting items.

[jackmor]

Just one question. If I buy stuff thats been resold at a markup can I resell it at a bigger mark up. I like to make money off others work too....I mean Im a marketer too.

You see Im just way to lazy to level my craft and its just easier to buy stuff that others have spent months leveling to make and just resell it. That way I can get dapper without having to do anything but buy and sell. Hell people have thanked me for charging them more for stuff they could have bought cheaper if they had only gotten to it before me.

Now I know this realy pisses people. But, fkum. Its all about me and what I want. I dont care about you or anyone else for that matter. Im gonna do whatever I want and there ain't squat you can do about it.

I just hope that no one does stuff like this to me because that would suck. Id have to start a whole new char. and do all that crap with the vender system just to keep doing it. Thats a lot of work.

[dazman76]

An interesting thing about this thread is that most, if not all replies have centered around the effects on Haddo. If you think about, the guy is making Q180 (or whatever) jewels - is he really losing anything here? I'd expect him to have at least a small fortune from selling all his grinds up to this point, plus the sets he's made to order.

Nobody has really mentioned the customers here, and I think if anyone is actually taking a hit, it's them. But still, if they weren't able to travel between lands to get their new jewels, i.e. couldn't get the Haddo gear directly from Haddo (or the merchants *he* sold them to), then they have one of two situations. They either buy lower quality gear for a lower price, or they don't buy any gear at all. The former is the more preferable, but people don't really want lower QL items that save them cash - they want the QL that they want, because of the boosts or resists available. So they'll pay the high price this time, and maybe the next set will come directly from Haddo himself, at a much reduced price - both parties are once again happy

[turkka]

I too had spoken with him (Haddo) about reselling to onther markets and we WELCOMED my interaction.

That's nice of you, will really make it easier for new people to get them as they don't all have access to Fyros markets.

I GIVE what I have to others constantly

Generosity is a rare virtue in modern world.

However, the subject of reselling to Fryos was never brought up. Why would I want to do that? I am not a dummy

Of course you aren't!

You won't believe this, but I went and pulled the rest of my jewels from Tryker and Zorai (heck, it takes days there just to sell one set) and dropped them into Thesos at ever higher prices! I believe I had the big pieces like the tiara (that is what I call it) and the pendant at between 200-300k each.

eh, what?

Reselling Haddo's in Fryos. Yep, I did.

But why would you take goods away from the poor and price them only available to the rich?

Make dappers for ME. You can call it greed if you like, but then ask yourself if you ever ask for raises in your jobs

But if Haddo underprices his goods so that not only the richest can get them?

"Looking out for the little guy" is something that can be done in many ways. The only thing I heard in here to back that statement up was: Keoni is littler than me, so in PVP zones, I'll be looking for her...

Perhaps you should be explained further what the consept is about: It is about standing up for the poor/weak ones. Actions that rips off from benefact to get personal gain are considered mean.

I'm not a mean person, nor someone that is out to take advantage of other players.

You propably didn't mean anything evil by what you did and we can end finger pointing....

How can you even think of branding someone evil for this?
Lets pause for a moment and read the title of the original post and consider how prophetic they were... Shame on YOU!

...or not.


[All quotes are edited from one post by vinka]

[madnak]

Turkka, while I agree with you in theory, these are very high quality jewels. Politics aside, it's not the newbies who are out in the cold. It's the high-level folks who have to put extra dappers down. And those jewels are really a luxury that most of us take for granted.