ranged needs to be fixed.

[kinot33]

Firstly, I'd to bless Aylwyne for the link to the Ballistic Mystix website and all the people over there for their hard work. Google officially sucks now.

So the ranged thing. *sigh* I would like to see it as a valuable and viable single class which it most definitely is not right now. If nothing else, you MUST become a crafter simply to keep yourself in ammo. No other class is like this. Crafters, Harvies and Casters and even Melee can straight class, but ranged fighter is simply too expensive and too un-refined to single class.

Ammo should be limited in some ways. A person can only carry so much and every bullet you carry is another few ounces of weight made just for killing. That said, clip sizes should be larger. Weight shouldn't neccessarily be decreased, but the whole weights-system for ammo should be reviewed with input from people who have actual weapons experience. Clip sizes shold be increased if you are going to use them. I would cite actual examples for various weapons, but google it yourself and see for yourself. 50+ mags for pistols are readily available and rifles get insane....

Range should definitely be increased. "What about Caster ranges" you say? Maybe magic is only a controllable force within 50 meters of a person no matter how powerful they are. Maybe the planets magic-field causes spells to dissipate if they get outside a casters control range. Maybe magic is not the issue here and shouldn't really factor in. Mages wil still do more damage, I think letting ranged hit farther than them is a viable and fair benefit for Ranged fighters. Pistols out to around 35-40 meters, but rifles etc out to something like 200+ meters. They ARE rifle after all....

Damage: I don't think damage should be increased that much if at all. My personal take on the various weapons available is that the limits imposed by ammo-weight would be sufficient if reviewed and tweaked further. Launchers should not be the weapon of choice all the time. Some folks like to snipe and others kinda dig being a pistoleer, yada yada yada.

Skills: With the previous paragraph in mind, I think that, like caster spells, different weapon types should be skills that you do not gain until you hit a certain level. And I do think they should be free. You start with Pistol and Rifle of your race and gain access to the other weapons as you prgress. You get options to buy other races weapon cert when you visit those lands for like 5sp or something. And then there are the actual weapon-skills. Quick-shot or Panic-shot or other things that give you modifers to various things or in certain situations. Shooting a pistol at 25 meters is nothing like pulling the trigger at 6 feet. But I would rather see the whole thing as base skills with bricks for mods rather than trying to do the whole stnadard range-modifiers thing. Easier to implement with the current system I believe. I am not going to post a huge list of possible skills, everyone can imagine the things they would like to be able to do based on movies, games and any real-world experiences they might have.

IMO, ranged is very unpolished if not downright un-implemented. You have access to its basics, but there is no advanced game for it at all. Complaining about it is appropriate because they have yet to truly implement it. Melee has so many different skills, Bleeding, Ignore Armor, various extra credits and so on. Ranged has almost nothing.

And please stop comparing Ranged and Elementals. They are two different classes. They share no common skill base. People have compared Melee and Caster and generally find them near-balance in regards to situational roles for each class. Ranged needs to be compared with Melee first and brought into balance there, then tweaked so it balances with Elemental, not brought up to Elemental and then tweaked to its own sister-class. Ranged being so weak actually hurts Melee classes too, since their sister-skill tree is of little benefit to them, unlike Casters who benefit from both sides of their skill tree should they choose to pursue it. The only real reason to build any ranged right now, unless you are simply psychotically masochistic, is to have extra points to spend on your stats so you can spend your Melee points on your real skills.

[tetra]

another fun fact...

QL 100 Supreme rifle of damage shooting QL 100 choice rifle ammo of damage = 209 damage per shot.
QL 100 Supreme rifle of damage shooting QL110 choice rifle ammo of damage = 209 damage per shot.
QL 110 Supreme rifle of damage shooting QL110 choice ammo of damage = 224 ish damage I think is it.
QL 110 basic rifle of worst possible mats in existance shooting QL100 choice rifle ammo of damage = 209 damage per shot.
QL 110 basic rifle of crappyness shooting QL110 choice rifle ammo of damage = 224 damage.
QL 90 rifle shooting any of those ammo's will hit for 193 damage...

QL 90 rifle shooting QL250 choice ammo of damage will hit for 193 damage..
QL100 rifle shooting QL250 choice ammo of damage will hit for 209 damage...
QL110 rifle shooting QL250 choice ammo of damage will hit for... (guess)

[piknik2]

another fun fact...

QL 100 Supreme rifle of damage shooting QL 100 choice rifle ammo of damage = 209 damage per shot.
QL 100 Supreme rifle of damage shooting QL110 choice rifle ammo of damage = 209 damage per shot.
QL 110 Supreme rifle of damage shooting QL110 choice ammo of damage = 224 ish damage I think is it.
QL 110 basic rifle of worst possible mats in existance shooting QL100 choice rifle ammo of damage = 209 damage per shot.
QL 110 basic rifle of crappyness shooting QL110 choice rifle ammo of damage = 224 damage.
QL 90 rifle shooting any of those ammo's will hit for 193 damage...

I think everyone already knew that ranged damage is based almost entirely on the ammo used; at least in it's current implementation. Hope it gets fixed soon, but it's not enough to make ranged combat useless. The other stats ( range, speed, etc ) are still functional. Try making a max speed rifle, that 200 damage a shot adds up mighty quick then.

The numbers you give above are not the problem with ranged combat, it's people not knowing how to use it. There's been many good posts by others on effective ranged combat techniques. You can't expect to be able to solo properly with ranged, melee or magic in this game. Ranged really shines in group combat, especially pvp.

QL 90 rifle shooting QL250 choice ammo of damage will hit for 193 damage..
QL100 rifle shooting QL250 choice ammo of damage will hit for 209 damage...
QL110 rifle shooting QL250 choice ammo of damage will hit for... (guess)

You found someone to make you q250 ammo.?. I'd love to meet them!

I admit rifle ammo would be better if it scaled better damage wise as the quality went up like say ... launcher ammo. A q100 launcher shooting q160 choice ammo of damage will hit for over 1000 aoe. But it's much like melee weapons if you look at closer. My q50 pike does about the same damage as my q150; it's really the skills of the user that affect the damage delilvered. Maybe we just need a couple more ranged stanza's, but then again... every skill tree could use more of that

[tetra]

You found someone to make you q250 ammo.?. I'd love to meet them!

read the post again...
QL X rifle and QL X+Y ammo does the damage of QL X ammo. If you take a QL 10 rifle and use high QL ammo in it, you do the same damage as QL 10 ammo would have done.

[piknik2]

read the post again...
QL X rifle and QL X+Y ammo does the damage of QL X ammo. If you take a QL 10 rifle and use high QL ammo in it, you do the same damage as QL 10 ammo would have done.

I read it enough times the first time around So, I decided to conduct my own tests to add some impartiality to this thread.

Please mind that I suck at ranged combat and couldn't hit bigger mobs for the tests ( though I am a super ranged crafter ). I used my q70 Choice Li'Shoy-ton Rifle of Range -- I'm L35 in Ranged Fight -- I made all the Choice Shoy-Ton Ammo of Piercing with the same mats ( 2 Choice Dung Resin, 1 Choice Perfling Bark, 1 Choice Koorin Oil ).

1- q80 - 72 (118) dmg
2- q110 - 79 (165) dmg
3- q140 - 84 (215) dmg
4- q160 - 87 (251) dmg

I shot a full clip of each ammo at a Suckling Yubo using the above mentioned rifle and ammunition. Damage was as follows :

1- 72
2- 79
3- 84
4- 87

I shot a full of each ammo at something bigger that I could still hit, a Timorous Mektoub. Damage was as follows :

1- 72
2- 79
3- 84
4- 87

Damage was consistent for the whole clip, though I did get 3 or 4 where the damage was quite less. I never did do any more than the minimum damage of the ammo, but that's probably due to my inadequate skill level in ranged fighting.

Conclusion : Using higher quality grade ammuntion in your weapons WILL do more damage even if if the quaility of the ammo is higher than that of your weapon!



Side-Note : Something pleasantly new I discovered while conducting this test was that crafting rates for ammunition have gone up! Rifle ammo is 4 mats and yields 2 clips of 40 round ammo now!

[tetra]

Conclusion : Using higher quality grade ammuntion in your weapons WILL do more damage even if if the quaility of the ammo is higher than that of your weapon!

That's only because your skill is too low and you are bottoming out on the minimum damage for each ammo type. Your test is no different than me going out and taking my level 60ish melee skills to town with QL120 weapons, I will consistantly hit around the min damage rather than around the max damage.

Are you going to make me waste mats on low QL rifles and post screenshots?

[xcomvic]

Are you going to make me waste mats on low QL rifles and post screenshots?

I would... just for fun... do it.. do it!

[mrshad]

wait a minute...ranged combat is broken...and it needs to be fixed !!??
When did that happen?
I swear it was fine just the other day. I saw it lying around...you know in that corner where we keep it, and it was fine. It smiled at me, waved 'hello'. I waved back, of course..because you know how ranged combat can be. You know, it has always been a bit...well...unbalanced...but I wouldn't say it was broken.
Does ranged combat know? Has it been to see anybody about it?
what about the children?
oh dear, dear ,dear....

[lariva]

Did this horse die a few times already?

[josephm]

It's funny how I can mention to a gm that framerate effects runspeed and lower framerates make you run slower. It's funny how I can give him all sorts of information about this, and then a couple days later we can get a patch that slows you down closer to the slowest speed you normally run when you turn off some of the various settings that slowed you down when they are on. Of course it takes several months to even consider fixing ranged.

Well for one thing..the balance was pretty easily defined there. Every homin should run the same rate of the same height...and it's still not perfect. I constantly outdistance my group in about a 1.5 minutes of running or less.

And wasn't there a cheat way back where you could edit your running speed in your own game? I think they just had to adjust a few things that were identical for all people, and would not change....in other words 250 levels of progression with varied stanza choices, types of weapons, ammo and effects etc etc. You just can't say that ranged is any way near the same type of code required for something else.

And someone else mentioned to stop comparing ranged to elem and compare it to melee. This is true. This is also false. Casting is ranged unless certain credits are used. Therefore a comparison is legit. Melee should not be forgotten, and yes I believe people forget the emphasis on this...like thinking shooting an armored person effectively is fair when they are 50 meters from hitting you.

I did ammo/gun tests a while back myself, I tracked it over about 20 levels of leveling and 40-50 levels of ammo and weapon crafting.

It seemed to me that no matter what happened, when you had skills or weapons below ammo that you did roughly a little less than minimum damage of the ammo. There was some variance but I generally raised about 1-2 damage a level using a 50 gun at 40 with 70 max damage choice ammo.

There was a lot more to it but it was a long time ago. I decided the whole thing sucked and until it was fixed I'd find time better doing other things.

Look Tetra, I see how guns suck and you'd like them to be a part of the game. I just hope you still aren't leveling it in the same boring manner...because when the time comes that ranged is fixed, you're the one who's going to have to start a new character to have all the fun with it that I'm going to...which would waste all of the time put into 'avatar Tetra' .