Ryzom

I hope no-one minds if I start this death penalty discussion again in a new thread, because when I read the responses to my original post I eventually realized that I had made a mistake, and the topic I wanted to discuss is actually a bit different.

The mistake I made was in using the phrase "eliminate the death penalty", because it seemed to force people into an area of discussion where I didn't really want to go (though I didn't realize this until later).

So, let me try from the beginning again, and see if I can start the discussion I really wanted to have.

First, some observations about death and the current death penalty mechanism. These are not intended to be controversial, and are not central to my argument, but are more like background:

a. The *concept* of DP is linked to the role-playing aspects of the game, but the *mechanism* of the DP is not.

You could have a different mechanism (for example, subtracting XP and levels instead, like some games, or halving XP gain while there is a DP, like some other games, etc) without anything looking any different inside the game world.

By contrast, something like fighting is integrated both in concept and mechanism. Throwing rotten vegetables at creatures to kill them could be implemented as a replacement to weaponry, but you sure would notice the difference as you walked around the game world.

b. Ryzom's DP system is much gentler than that of most MMO games.

This may sound like a reason for me to shut up ("it's not so bad, quit whining!"), but I am choosing to take the opposite view (without whining, I hope): If the DP system is so much less intrusive, then it isn't really a vital part of the game, and should be made less intrusive. (Read on, before you get hot and bothered about this statement.)

c. One of the reasons people give for having this DP system is that it makes the game more exciting, because more is at risk if you die.

I accept this argument, in the sense that if you think this is so, then it is for you. Personally, I find myself much more annoyed to have done something stupid and die than to have acquired a death penalty I can forage off fairly easily.

Even more acceptable is the opinion that fear of dying (as opposed to fear of DP) is a good thing.

d. One of the reasons people give for having this DP system is that otherwise, players would have no reason to try to avoid dying.

I finally decided to reject this argument, because it involves making claims about what other players *would* do, without presenting any evidence. It also assumes, without presenting evidence or an argument, that I (or you) would find it detrimental to my (or your) game play experience if other players didn't try to avoid dying.

e. Still, whatever their reasons, most people seem to want death to remain a very unpleasant experience, and many seem to want to death in Ryzom to be even more unpleasant.

f. I don't like having a DP. It decreases my enjoyment of the game. A bit of bad luck, an accidental step too far into dangerous unknown territory, a server crash, a moment's inattention during foraging, a slip of the finger on the keyboard, a group with an undisciplined player, all of these can add up to a large DP, and a large DP decreases my enjoyment even more.

OK, that's some background, now for my (new) proposal:

I am fine with the idea that death might be very painful, but I propose that I should not be saddled with the pain after death. In terms of the current game-play, I am suggesting that *getting* a DP is fine, but *having* a DP is not. Does this sound like a contradiction? It's not really, it just means that I am suggesting that death have a different set of consequences, other than a numerical DP.

The exact consequences would be determined according to what seems likely to work best, but here are some specific ideas. I'm not suggesting that *all* of these need to be implemented. Some subset of them, or some other analogous ideas, would have the effect I am looking for. I also want to make it very clear that these would not be instant and large consequences of a *single* death. For a player with an average number of deaths, the effect might be minimal. For players who don't take the trouble to stay alive, the consequences would gradually become dramatic.

0. No death points.

The numerical DP value would be eliminated in favor of other penalties or death consequences, examples described below.

One advantage of this is that the replacement penalties would be better integrated into the role-playing aspects of the game.

1. Excessive death decreases fame.

If you can't take the trouble to keep yourself alive, then you don't deserve to be famous amongst your own people. Repeated deaths would gradually cause your personal fame in your homeland (e.g. Matis fame if you are a Matis homin) to decrease. There are various variations possible. Probably only positive fame would decrease, and it wouldn't decrease below 0. Possibly Kami and Karavan might be affected too, but fame with clans like Sacred Sap would *not* be affected. Possibly your guild's fame could go down a bit too.

If your fame decreases, you could do additional missions to re-raise it, or just ignore it if you don't care.

There would be a few flow-on consequences, such as NPC prices going up because your fame went down.

2. Increased wear and tear of death.

The wear and tear on your equipment could be increased slightly as a result of your death. This could be done several ways. For example, dying might simply reduce HP on your equipment by a small amount. Or, *not* dying in a fight might reduce the equipment HP reduction that we would currently expect.

(I'm not greatly in favor of this one, because it seems so petty, but it's certainly a viable possibility.)

3. Increased shabbiness for shabby play.

Weapons and armor could gradually degrade in appearance (without changing in function or effectiveness). The armor of a player who dies a lot might start to look worn, patched or broken. There would be no direct effect on game-play, but you might stop and think before inviting such a player to group with you, unless you knew he had a good reason for looking so bad. I don't know if the damage would be reversible, or whether the equipment would need to be replaced to restore the player's good looks. Either seems viable.

4. Deathly pallor.

A player who died a lot might gradually lose all color, and in extreme cases might appear completely in shades of gray. Aside from visual appearance, this is the same as #3, except that the color would regenerate over time.

5. Stat loss.

A player who died a lot might find his max HP, sap, stamina and focus reduced for a period of time. The effect of the would be to make the player more prone to dying, so the player would have to choose between not playing for a while, or tackling easier tasks, or being more careful, or dying more and getting even weaker for longer.

6. Death taxes.

Currently, players who don't mind the DP (especially lower level players whose DP is easily manageable) can use death as a means of transport. I and many other players have often taken the "Gingo Express" from an outlying region back to a city.

If there were merely no numerical DP to work off, death would become an alternate transportation system, and tickets would become unnecessary.

Since this doesn't seem like such a good result, I would suggest that the respawn after death should cost the price of a teleporter ticket. It would work something like this:

-- If you wait till the respawn timer goes to zero (used to be 2 mins, now is about 5), then you would be transported to the capital city of the land you're in, for free. The downside is that you have to wait, and that if you want to go somewhere else you're out of luck.

-- If you want to respawn early, or if you want to go somewhere other than the capital city, you would have to pay for the privilege.

OK, that's it. My opinion is that changes like these would give players a lot of incentive to avoid dying, but would not leave them with lingering punishments as they continue playing the game -- unless they choose to die recklessly time and time again.

This, members of the jury, is my opening and closing statement, now over to you.

Adayl
Morto-balancer of Matis

P.S. I'm *really* sorry this post is so long.

qmodal wrote: a. The *concept* of DP is linked to the role-playing aspects of the game, but the *mechanism* of the DP is not.

Given your description from that point on, I understand where you're coming from, and it makes sense to me. Good point!

I really like number 1.. the decrease in fame. That goes hand-in-hand with my personal belief that, as a rule, if you're rewarded for success, you should be punished for failure. If you become a well known and respected member of a given society through your successes, it would stand to reason that your failures (especially repeated) would be just as well known and responded to. Of course, that leads toward the increase in prices, etc. That has a very "realistic" feel to it, in a RP sense.

The deathly pallor... well.. heh, my Matis is already pretty pale.. Don't know how much worse she could get... Translucent? (ewww...). I also think we're talking about a large increase in assets that Nevrax would have to create for this... Don't know how feasible that would be - especially with all the other more immediate tasks they have before them.

I don't have time to comment on your other points, but I agree or disagree in varying degrees with each of them. Overall, I like your approach to it.. make the death penalty something more meaningful to the *character* in terms of setting and story, not merely the player playing them in terms of time being spent to work off their mistake.

Of course, whether or not any of that would be done is completely another story.. But I think it's an interesting discussion overall.

qmodal wrote:Currently, players who don't mind the DP (especially lower level players whose DP is easily manageable) can use death as a means of transport. I and many other players have often taken the "Gingo Express" from an outlying region back to a city.

There are still a fair number of non working teleporters. I have yet to find one that is working in Nexus, so DP train is the way to go, sadly

I like this a lot. It would keep exploration viable and still provide RP reasons for avoiding death.

What about people who try to explore. In my case I missed a trip to Fyros from Matis because of a disconnect. Later on I tried making my way through Hidden Source on my own. I racked up a good 440k DP (60k a pop). Now imagine that if Experience was taken away from me. I probably would have lost 2-3 levels in 20 minutes that took a good 2-3 hours to gain. DP is fine I believe. Noobs will be noobs, not much we can do there. They wont be low level for too long. DP does get harder to get off with lack of groups at higher levels. Im not a high level forager only 54 atm. So I only get 6k a pop if Im lucky. I think DP is fine for now. Another thing, just real quick, what if you hit say 120 melee and your con is now 140. You can now equip 150 armor because you have purchased Constitution. If you "De-Leveled" so to say, would your con go down and have to equip a lower q of armor, until you acheived level 120 again? I think with the way Carnivores and Kitin travel in groups things should stay the same, if it were one kitin her and there or carnivore, maybe the loss of exp would be adequite. I remember being in PR and having about 20 Gruesome Kinchers Blast me. I think thats horrid enough, not to mention I was 50m away from them when they aggroed. I don't know. Maybe something else would be better. But I really do think DP is the way to go for now considering the game play change so often.

Considering how many times I saw Adayl die getting to Fyros, I think he's taking these things into consideration.

My understanding is that the changes to stats would be temporary, and the changes to equipment would apply only to that set of equipment (so you could have an "explorer's outfit" that looks a bit patchy and a "hunting outfit" that looks good, if a little scuffed, and an "event outfit" that is polished and shiny). The fame would be the only permanent thing and it wouldn't take much longer to get it back than it takes to clear dp now, the exception would be that those not interested in fame/RP wouldn't have to worry about it.

First, a sort of pointed synopsis of my intent in my reply.

** A lot of people seem to forget that death consequences often result from connection or computer issues. You always have to address that concern first in any adjustment to death consequences, because they result in what will be seen by some as unfair erosion of a player's enjoyment and time. Bad luck is one thing, connection and computer concerns aren't. Any death penalty or consequences so involving that it requires a great effort of the player to overcome with his own personal time investment, will eventually lead to frustration if it can be caused by the above. Sometimes the problem is that there are not enough ways to remove a death penalty or consequence and not that the death penalty exists. Finally, if difficulty and the striving to overcome is so paramount to feeling a job well done or a sense of achievement, why don't we just go back to saying that we are for slower leveling, a longer grind, etc. If you concept is the make the game more involving, I'm all for that, as long as we consider some of the points I will raise below. Sorry about the long post, but I barely have the time to post this and it's long as it is, thanks. **

I don't think anyone has ever had a problem with the concept that death have involving repercussions within the game world. In fact, a lot of players would like NPCs to be able to know when you died, how often you died, on what quest did it happen, to what monster, trying to aid what faction, trying to hurt a member of what faction, etc.

In that regard, since that seems to be the theme of your suggestion, sure we all would probably like to see many of our actions, the quest system, tasks, and death more entertwined in the game.

Sigh.

However, I keep having to unfortunately remind myself , the poster, and others, that this is a game. Any new interconnects in this game had better be well tested and had better not reduce the "fun factor" or eat into player's real world time. Any death penalty or circumstance which merely adds to a player's frustration is not good.

Conceptually what you propose is constructive and interesting. I often thought that's what I wanted in single-player games. But concepts run into a lot of major issues especially with an online MMORPG game.

So I'm going to mention some of those issues here, just so that everyone understands that I'm not really against these concepts, but I think they have to be analyzed in the light of real MMORPG gameplay. That unfortunately is the rub or fly in the ointment with most of the good concepts that could go into MMORPG play.

Here are some of the obvious considerations that come to mind when testing if it is worth the effort to try and implement an otherwise fabulous concept.

1) Does lag or connection unfairly affect or penalize certain players in a significant manner?

For example, if we had a consequence of deaths that was so entertwined into the NPC reactions , basically the NPC game culture, and we could by having a bad connection day die 10 times involved in some major quests and all of a sudden the world would see us as a terrible scoundrel, unable to do business with them, we've got a major frustration to players with that kind of a connection. The consequences are significant and lasting, but the internet connection was outside the players control, or that is outside his ability to influence by his intended choices and play and/or skill in the game. Heaven help us if the player is near suicidal at that moment as well. Might be a good way to sell more monitors and shoes though.

2) A relative to the first test is ... does the processing power of the computer, installed memory, graphics card, or hard disk make one player at a grievous disadvantage?

3) Are the consequences of the concept, in this case of death, dependent much on the relative abilities of various players, and are those "abilities" dependent on the connection or the computer?

Here an obvious example is why some people dislike fame or great rewards given out to those taking part in Events. Some people have learned that zones crash or their computer is simply not up to masses of players running through an event area. So they do not do the events. If the only way to have the best sword in the game or the best armor or the best magic amp, or the best fame, or the best reputation for prices with NPC vendors, comes as the result of these events and places these events participants at a huge advantage, the question as to fairness becomes apparent.

Some games even base their rewards on things that are dependent on your connection or your computer's processing power. Granted there is always a small effect to that, but I'm not complaining about things like combat, you usually have a chance with some decent connection , there is some skill and some character attributes etc involved in an MMORPG. No, I'm talking about , for example, some games have a quest where you have to win a race against others, and in those games it is clear that although you have the same game walking speed, those with a cleaner connect with the race, they can outrun you traversing the zone. In such a case, having that as a quest with a huge reward, or being a required element based on comparison with others is idiotic and wrong. Some player will be frustrated by having to win a race against others he has no chance to defeat.

3) Can the concept as implemented be exploited?

In MMORPGs one of the main things some very few live for is to find an exploit that gives them a great edge. As often as not, by the time the exploit is closed, the exploit has given such a large advantage to those who used it, that the others are at a material disadvantage. This also has to be considered when implementing any idea.

I'm sure you can come up with other tests or concerns, as I've only spent about 15 minutes and am doing this off the cuff.

My concern is that , in general, I don't find most the Devs of most MMORPGs are really capable enough to understand all this. Partly this is by the very habit of how they develop.

Remember, development time is shortened by having the very best computers at your disposal and by knowing the testers knowing the game very well. So what happens is they test the game on the very best INTERNAL networks, where there is no connection lag. They then have the very best computers, lots of RAM to compile code, likewise the bring up the game and test any changes internally as rapidly as possible. Finally the Q&A and testing staff is usually familiar with the game to such a degree that they forget to check the old documentation, since they never need it, and have learned the walkarounds already that were promised to no longer be needed, all in order to test quickly. The result is that the new player, or the different approach that might cause a bug or an exploit or whatever, is often not checked out thoroughly. It certainly means that the devs and testers are unlikely to be aware of certain problems that a concept's implementation may be having with those people who have a weaker set-up or connection or are stuck in the early parts of the game doing something in an unexpected manner.

Beyond all that, although the concept may be something to work into the game, I do believe that this game has certain priorities to work on first.

It's hard to even know, for example , how the fame or factions work in the game right now, since they don't seem to be working right at all, from the posts I've read.

In that regard I really believe it's time to do Job 1 again. If your proposal is meant to help them consider something new for long down the road, fine . But if you truly expect them to implement this into the game within the next 12-18 months, I think you are actually, unintentionally, distracting them from more important issues, and I'm afraid you may end up disappointed.

I don't mean to disrupt or hijack the thread. But every action , every post has likewise it's consequences. I felt I should post in reply here. I wish you well.


There seems to be a popular theory being bandied about lately, that reward in games is based upon the difficulty of the achievement. That's not really completely true in an MMORPG. Partly this is because there are many elements to such play and many "types" of players. Some enjoy the chatting, others leading a group or guild, some the crafting, some the fighting, some a bit of each. Difficulty is only an element of achievement or fun. Comraderie is part of it, time put in is part of it. Skill is only a part of all that. Anyway, I better exit this topic now.

(quick edit for obvious mistakes)

Hmm..

I think players adapt to what ever penalties are in place, so long as they're fair and not insurmountable, by and large.

For example, in FFXI, you have the loss of XP and possibly a level from dying, and in different degrees depending on how you are brought back.

Now, if that was proposed out of context to people for an up-and-coming MMORPG, most would probably scoff at it and say "I'd never play a game like that! It's too harsh!" Yet, check the pops on FFXI and you'll see it has *well* over 500k playing it. So.. it can't be *that* bad, now can it?

In Lineage II, you have the Karma system implemented into what is, openly a PvP based game. It's a harsh system. That system received ALOT of scorn in the beginning (might still for all I know) and there were people who predicted the game's failure if they didn't "fix" it... Yet, last time I checked, the Karma system is still in place, and Lineage II is still going very strong with a healthy player base.

Someone mentioned how if they decided to solo through what, I assume, is a high level area, they would likely rack up over 400k DP... Well, if you know that's the risk, then what you're trying to do is obviously way beyond your character's abilities. The logical solution would be either not soloing it or waiting until you can. Racking up 400k+ DP in such a case would be the result of a poor player decision, not a flaw in game design. To use that as a reason for or against the death penalty is sorta self-serving in that context.

As for death because of computer or connection crashing.. That's a risk no matter what game you're playing. The death penalty isn't any more or less harsh depending on how you've died; at least not in any MMO I've played. Again, if someone is already playing the game, they likely know what the death penalty is, accept it, and know they can work it off. In the context of a game that you can pour hundreds of hours of your life into, it's a temporary set-back, not a permanent game killer.

And, death by crashing is not *that* dramatic or frequent an event, by and large; or at least it shouldn't be. I'd be surprised if there are people who would tolerate playing any game that crashes on them so frequently. I certainly wouldn't. Nevermind dying.. playing the game at all would prove unbearable in that case.

So, when it comes down to it, the feeling of risk is certainly tied into how bad the penalty is for failure. If it's a slap on the wrist that you can bounce right back from with no problem (a la WoW) then the risk of dying isn't so big and you're likely to try something simply for the heck of it.. So what if you die? Not like it has any *meaningful* effect on your character. However, if you're faced with the loss of XP or a level, suddenly your risk-taking is going to be more carefully weighed... That's the point.

I'm not proposing XP or level loss, nor am I proposing a lesser, "slap on the wrist" for death.. But, I think that the penalty in SoR would still be fine if they were to increase it, or expand it in some way. I think the loss of fame with NPCs is not unreasonable.. And it wouldn't necessarily mean they won't sell to you.. You just don't get the benefits of reduced costs on items.. perhaps you don't receive certain quests, etc. etc. Those are only minor set-backs that can be fixed, not game killers.

Anyway.. my two cents.

I'd vote for stat loss and item loss.

Consider fame with a specific region. Death lowers fame. then lower the fame is then more items get lost out of the backpack.

I.e. if my fame is 0 i loose 5 items (random perhaps)
if my fame is 100 i loose 1.
And everything in between.

If my fame is 100, it is reduced to 95, - non-linear progression should do it:

consequently, then more i die, then more my 'planet tall' is. This way:

People will work more towards fame
People will be rather reluctant to die.

lupine04 wrote:Yet, check the pops on FFXI and you'll see it has *well* over 500k playing it. So.. it can't be *that* bad, now can it?

I played FFXI, and exploration was very rare. My background is with MUDs so maybe this is "normal" in an MMORPG, but the exploration was terrible in that game. I never did run across another player who was willing to lose 2 levels running around looking for new things. The only reason anyone ever left the popular regions of the game was to get l3wt. People refused to do even relatively simple things like Garrison because they were afraid of dying. "Want to have some fun and try a Garrison?" "Not unless we have 18 people who know what they're doing and have done it before." Or even "Garrison's not worth it." And certain burning circle monsters I couldn't find anyone to help with even if I provided the seals because they didn't drop good enough items.

lupine04 wrote:Someone mentioned how if they decided to solo through what, I assume, is a high level area, they would likely rack up over 400k DP... Well, if you know that's the risk, then what you're trying to do is obviously way beyond your character's abilities. The logical solution would be either not soloing it or waiting until you can. Racking up 400k+ DP in such a case would be the result of a poor player decision, not a flaw in game design. To use that as a reason for or against the death penalty is sorta self-serving in that context.

"Poor player decision?" I've maxed my dp many, many times, and would still be willing to do so if it maxed at 8 million instead of 800k. I don't regret one point of it and my decisions were just right if you ask me. You can't explore without dying. Especially not in a game like this where aggro means a fight to the death. Exploration is all about risk, and if you take risks sometimes you're going to get the bad end of the stick.

It sounds like you're suggesting we have a system where players are terrified of taking risks and nobody does anything adventurous or anything that I, for one, consider fun. If I want to play a game where everyone stays 10 feet from the town square and kills rabbits until they are maximum level, I'll go somewhere else. If I want to play a game where taking on a challenge or doing something fun is only possible if it gives uber l3wt or is 100% safe, I'll go somewhere else. I'm playing this game specifically to get away from that kind of thing, which is a deal-breaker for me.