Ryzom

Please note that this is not a discussion of wanting PvP. It won't last. It never does, but I digress. This is meant to point out geographical and ecological features Nevrax has implemented on Atys concerning what form of play optimizes the environment Nevrax, intentionally or not, has created. Everthing is based on the game 'as it stands'. Nevrax has it's own plans, so this is purely theoretical.

My first impression:
When I think of Atys' environment I think of Africa 2000 BC, More like it would be today had magic been involved. Like Author Robert Asprin pointed out in his comical yet wise Myth series, 'Magic and Technology both exist in all demensions. Both are tools and depending on their use they hold a universal balance. High magical civilizations are lower in technology because they have less use for it. The same applies to Civilizations with advanced technology.'
This isn't a direct quote but it explains his concept.

Magic hasn't just evolved for homins, it has also evolved for the creatures of Atys making them smarter, stronger, and able to shoot lightnig ohnolookoutARGH!!! So we've had to advance our weapons and armor to 'heavier' levels. Full suits of armor are typically associated with combat vs. other bipedal, intelligent and organized societies. In Atys, this was nessicary to survive before decension amongst our kin ever occured.

I know my history, and yes, I understand their were great homin civilizations before the kitin invasion. But I'm talking about large bodocs and those dastardly gingos. Eventually there were reasons for the homins to split apart, and I'm sure opposing views occured and people got mad at each other. This caused wars and we did end up using our weapons and armor against each other. One might say we perfected them even more because of this...but we're still largley hunters, not warriors.

Moving on from general impression, I will now state why I believe Atys to be suited as one large territorial PvP environment.

Geographical:
Unlike many other heavily PvE orientated games, there are no linear dungeon crawls in Ryzom. The vast majority of creatures live in large open areas and, given the level of adventurer, approached from nearly any angle.

The only true 'dungeon' crawls are ones that involve homins traveling from one side of certain dangerous zones to another. Usually these are one time efforts. Once a person has the spawn point, it's faster to die and harvest off a single death, than run the gambit.

Though routes to harvest areas and hunting areas change, the result is generally the same. You find a spot, and camp it to get what you need. Harvesting is a little more diverse. You get the same xp for different mats and get to craft nearly anything once you know the nodes. Largely XP hunters when it comes to combat personell, and the camping spots tend to be much longer, or repetitive.

This brings me back to my African 2000BC impression. Tribes often found a good spot to hunt, and did so. Of course the land isn't as big as Africa, so we have mob spawns to make up what would naturally occur over incredibly large areas.

Tight valleys that are of great strategic vantage seldom contain aggresive, or even 'boss' mobiles. They seem to be left strictly for the players. Odd ruins are strewn about west of min cho through winding corridors where no monsters higher than a scampering mektoub roam. A large area, but no significance in PvE. It's a prime place for some caves and dungeons if Nevrax decides to add them. I'm of the mind set that any content, PvE or PvP are greatly appreciated. As it stands though. I see only PvP in this particular region.

Unlike many PvE orientated games, Ryzom has very high player run 'hub' content that seems to be in the works. I'm talking about the strongholds and keeps. There are many of these considering the low population of Atys. Once they are implemented, I do believe that even the last guilds to pick them up will have a few choices to make.

Because these outposts are not very far from each other, there is potential for constant attrition as guilds battle for better territory. Outposts can also be abandoned once a guild decides to move on or has ousted another guild for control of some territory. Very primitive, very tribal.

In more advanced civilizations we would see settlements spanning larger areas. In FFXI you will see this, and it provides (from what I hear) a great PvE environment where there are plenty of dungeons and side quests. Ryzom doesn't have that, so by minimizing settlement distance, Nevrax provides more player on player attrition.

A few of these outposts are also in noob areas. With no quick mobs and Q50 mats this may not seem an advantage. However, should faction based and guild based PvP take place, controlling the paths to cities would cost your rivals millions in Dapper over time. Assuming Dapper is worth anything at later levels, this could be worth something. You also have prime access to new recruits, and gaining fame with 'simpler' missions.

Possesion of territory would also skew the accessibility of assorted materials. Controling a material would mean that other people who want that material might not give you access unless you do. This promotes trade...or war. Either are player to player interaction.

Ecological:
Largely in PvE orientated games there is more structure to the enemy. Encampments where you fight to get to the goal. A few boss mobs run around with their weaker counterparts, but they function much akin to the typical RAID engine herd. That being said, your typical creatures all act as if in wild life. nearly all of them are just dumb, herbivores or carnivores. There aren't gobbie villages and anything that can be associated with them to progress a story line. Sure there are camps...and if you attack one guy the rest pull like you rang a dinner bell, and you're serving messab soup.

Mobile structure really seems to come through with Ryzom's events. Though I am at work during most, I seem to notice a 2 week pattern. I will be sure to space my work so I am at home for the next event. From what I hear, it's absolutely exciting. It seems so complex that it must requires people to work behind the scenes so we may enjoy. So obviously this is where they are focusing a lot of resources. Would they be doing this every 2 weeks if they felt pressure for more online story content? I can't say...

With the addition of content all this may change, but aside from events, mobile interaction (beautiful as it is) is rather limited.

Divinity, Technology, and PAGANS!!!:
just something I thought I'd like to touch lightly upon. Religion, takes a roll with the Karavan and their Jena. They also have technology. Kami are pure nature spirits. I see in my head, Monotheistic religious authority vs Pagan's who largely worshipped earth spirits. I think the content will have more to do with propaganda and getting us to do things for the kami or the karavan and kind of create a story line as we go...Nevrax gave us the beginning and the end. Our politics, skills and abilities are what get us through the middle. I don't think that they're sure who's going to win either problably different on each server.

PvP and Patterns.
No limitations are placed on where a person can travel without pvp unless you have some extreme faction disconent. But neutrals can start out and get every little thing they want. PvP would reduce this and create more nuclear communities that may not be so open or trusting of new people. For instance: I'm in a faction based, vs Karavan, I'm expecting Tryker and Matis armor plans to kill. I'm not going to run towards a bunch of twigs because I will assume they are my team. Therefore, I will covet my equipment plans until I am somehow sure that a person is my friend. Some people who can craft other race's plans have an advantage yes, but few have very very high quality stuff. In a few months I expect to see a whole lot of it. If PvP is implemented, the right people will have the right plans and we'll be making content ourselves! (remember: as the game stands now!)

Conclusion:
Just by looking around I think that the game is suited for a PvP environment as it stands. Yes I do want PvP, but even if I didn't, I couldn't deny that the structure of Atys calls for a majority of content to come from the players themselves. And this by doing the only tools they've given us to work with. Digging, Killing, and Fashion shows.

-=clap clap=- well said I couldnt have said it better myself.

epic post and truly worthy of the game, i hope you don't mind if i translate it for the german community

wow thanks that'd be awsome! I should polish up on my crappy high school German and go read what people think there too. oh I changed from 'east of min cho' to 'west of min cho' in the fifth uhh not quite paragraph, under geography. got my directions mixed up.
Never Eat Soggy Waffles!

well, it won't be done til tomorrow afternoon gmt anyways ^^

That was well written, and well thought out, thank you.

You are right, open PVP would force people together.
You have to consider whether that is really the effect you want.
If you ever played shadowbane, then you know what I mean. Not being able to leave town for fear of player killers interrupting your game. Wondering, every time you log in, whether you are going to be ganked on arrival.
I will admit, most of my guildies were great in Shadowbane, and the part of the reason they were is because we had to depend on each other. But everyone else was an enemy. the alliances we had were tenuous and shifting, so even when you were friendly with a member of an opposing guild, if guild relations wen't bad, you had to kill him.

I am against open PVP in this game.

I am, however, all for PVP areas, such as the PR, or some other place that has something desirable enough to make people risk the trip.

Does realism demand that the game be open PVP? yes it does.
Would that make some aspects of the game more interesting? I belive it would.
Would it make the game more enjoyalbe as a whole? I really don't think so.

please read the sticky that gives the facts on PvP by Cerest. You will see that Nevrax has already taken this into consideration. Open PvP is PR only.

PR may seem dangerous now for a majority of people, but when you have a guild full of 200+ I don't think it will be to bad. I've heard of people taking out kitin patrols already. Once that danger is erased, player factions will play a greater roll. With the current layout of the game and it's 'natureal realism' in all areas including pr, the challenge will eventually dissapate.

Are people willing to just log on every two weeks for the events that will pose challenge to them? People are reachiing the upper eschelon as we speak...I know some that will be 210+ before the week is out. These people will soon grow bored unless something poses a challenge. We will be up there eventually as well. We will get bored....does having nothing to look foreward to but bi weekly events 6 months into the game sound more enjoyable as a whole? I really don't think so.

See all this chalks up from my original post. Whether 'we' want PvP or not, it seems like Nevrax, intentionally or not, designed this game to be the RPGMMO that is the equivalent to Planetside. They are balancing out our mobile progression for levels, and the need to actually earn each piece of equipment with restrictions on playerkilling in certain areas That will keep things interesting. We get to be an active part of a story, not just FPS mayhem, with the same quality of play

You supported free for all in the PR before you knew that was the plan it seems. Why? I'm guessing because you believe that it's for the Raw, Uncut players who want to live on the edge, or people who want to stage invasions and take other countries' outposts in preparation for all out assaults on the main land. I could be wrong, information would be helpful. Do you agree or disagree that this is what the land is shaped to do? If not why? You may be seeing something I missed.

Remember, Nevrax is French, so was Napolean...btw what's Nevrax mean in French? Free Translation gives me nothing!

I can see your reasoning on PVP. I have issue with FULLY open PVP in any area. FULLY open PVP would mean to me that a Karavan could kill another Karavan factioned player and take NO fame hit. I think that if you don't know another persons fame, and you kill them...well NOW you KNOW their fame...you just took hits with ALL of those that they are alligned/have good or even piddling fame with, and those that don't like/hate them just decided that you really aren't THAT bad a guy.

You sound to me like a person that BELIEVES in cause and effect, as a mother...I am a regilious adherant to it. NOTHING teaches better than you goof up...this happens...EVERY time without fail. And if you gank/grief/murder, a game that I have been looking into betaing has this concept of MURDER versus player killing with cause...AND open PVP, you kill another player for NO reason other than you don't like the color of ARMOR he/she has on and SUDDENLY guards of towns of their same race/fation/fame whatever don't like you. You can't TRAIN/buy/sell/access banks etc. The penalties for OPEN griefing are SEVERE and prompt and the FEW ways around this system are either expensive, difficult and unreliable OR...time consuming like JAIL time, aka suspension. BUT if you kill another faction's player, there could even be CONSIDERABLE rewards (monitary, special favors/spell training/skills in melee, patterns for crafters OR my favorite special skills/hints or secret tricks in foraging. SOMETHING that would possibly be lasting and make life easier.).

I personally would LOVE to see wanted posters on the gates of towns, near trainers/merchants and ANY NPC that gives missions. If a player get INFAMOUS enough...WOW they could even end up in a MISSION. I can see it, that EVIL Karvaner that WONTONLY killed INNOCENT Kamiites as they blissfully foraged (forget the fact that these foragers were selling their mats to crafters who MUCH less blissfully OR innocently turned those mats into KILLING machines against this "EVIL" Karavaners BROTHERS), he goes by the Name of Jesse James (psudonym for illustration, but you get the point), Kill him ONCE and I will appreciate you greatly (a certain number of fame hits that corralate to the fame of the bad guy) and pay you X dappers, kill him three times and you will get *reward the devs come up with here, prolly depending upon the HIGHEST level of the Mission taker*

NOW...I am normally a PEACEFUL woman, I will help someone that has HISTORICALLY been my DEEPEST enemy, given the right circumstances. BUT...if the role of BOUTYHUNTER opened up...*clears throat* I can't say that I would NOT find it rewarding for more than JUST the monitary possiblities.

(although for those kinds of missions, I doubt I would waltz up to Ole Jesse and say..."YO MOMMA!" More than likely I would work up my range, PRAY for a TRULY ranged range...kinda like a snipers rifle with an INSANE scope. Just my style ya know.)

I will admit...IF there are SERIOUS repercussions to killing another player in UNdeclared war time, unlike the ALL too familiar griefer/ganker scenes we have ALL been victim to, and SERIOUS benefits that actually affect game play...and story line...then...MAYBE I would enjoy it.

I would also like to see a Maximum level OVER your target that a PKer could be and even TOUCH the player. This would end the Griefer at Noob hill picking off the babies as they crawl out of the nursery the first time. And I think if you routinely aim at players WAY under your xp level (think along the same lines as PVE xp leveling...if a player picks on suckling Yubos for 50 levels...they MIGHT could do it...but they are eventually going to suffer severly) would be tagged as a murderer or highwayman. Some mark that would be flagged over their heads, like a RED name or something else that would tag a kiddie killer as a pariah.

I have dueled a few friends. Mostly people I KNEW for a LONG time and was good friends with. We both knew that we were either testing a theory (is the epic pet TRULY King or are the new POP pets the RUIN of the mage epic...Well that theory/question went both ways with everything else the same, some times the "weaker" pet won, and sometimes the stronger OWNED the weaker pet in NO TIME flat. Just depends upon which pet won the rolls), or just testing our abilities, we knew that our friendship was sound and NOT at risk in this battle. We knew our self worth in game or OUT was NOT on the line, and NO hard feelings. I can NOT say that this is the fact with the newbie walking out of gate into Ganker fit scenes. These idiots are just out to ruin the fun of as many players as possible.

Cliff notes version:
Provide me with a PVP environment with as MUCH reward and as LITTLE crap or ruined fun as possible and I am ALL for it. But know this, I have played MANY PVP games...and I haven't liked ANY of the PVP rule sets I have seen so far. NO WHERE NEAR enough punishement for the griefers, and not nearly enough reward for those that play nice (No I wouldn't concider it out of line to kill another player, just Murder them). And SORRY but ranking is for sports teams and the Olympics, I am TOTALLY NOT impressed with the first place ranking (I know of SOME guilds in EQ on the teams or racial pvp servers that would make up an Opposite team guild...all in the name of climbing that ranking ladder Pathetic!) and posting my name on the website for my friends to see *eyebrow* Oh WOW golly GEE willickers ain't that Keen.

What I want from PVP is some SENSE and order to it, NOT random acts of meaningless murder. And in a game, it becomes even MORE meanless, camping spawn spots would happen, Unless you put a few of the spawn spot guards on Assist the attacked spawners.


Shortest version:
Make it FUN, Make it MEANINGFUL, make it impact the players for the REST of their game carrier, take the GRIEF out of griefer, and the Gank out of the gankers. Take the MOSH out of the moshpit. And I will gladly log on.

Give me the SAME ole warmed over week OLD pvp riot...and I will find something better to do with my time and money.

I have been treated like crap in games before, I have suffered under the assumption that there just was NO alternative. LOL...I know better now.

And as MUCH as I want to LOVE this game for the next ten years...if PVP ends up a kick in the teeth...I will NOT stay. My days as red headed step child are GONE.

I love this community, even the ANNOYING trolls are kinda cute when we are all carebears. But if the community devolves into drooling Gankers with the IQ of a BEAN SPROUT...I will consider the community DEAD and move on.

lyrah68, I couldn't agree more.

i think since this is being tested on the ATS server. how about letting EVERYONE play it.... let us see if its good or not...