Ryzom

I started Saga of Ryzom less than a week ago. I signed up under the 14-day trial. I'm also now completely hooked However, I have noticed that there are some common complaints -- group offensive magic, ranged attacks, and soloing.

I've had the same issues as everyone else with these things. With the servers down for this latest patch, I took some of my normal play time and read through the forums here to see what others thought, or had suggested, regarding these issues. . . and quickly found a trolling flamewar of deeply entrenched "fanboi vs troll" rhetoric and, with some exceptions, very little substance. Now I suspect that at sometime in the past, there was constructive dialog on these forums regarding these issues. By sleeping in late, I missed it -- so, here is an attempt to examin those issues, in a constructive light, for those who may have missed any such chance earlier. If you find I'm just re-hasing the same ever-present issues that you all have harped on in times passed and you just can't be botheredd to discuss it again -- well, then DON'T.

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The Issue: Group offensive magic (and offensive magic in general)

The Problem: Groups take down higher-level mobs than do the increasingly mythical "solo" players. The success rate of spells against mobs higher lvl than the spellcaster is, well, quite abysmal.

As a special note, I'd like to point out that I haven't tried group magic combat in groups since the Nov.17 patch, so if this has changed, I appologize.

Specifically, though, I find that as my caster and melee levels increase, I work considerably harder to maintain the magic levels relative to the melee levels. Despite equal levels in these two areas, I have to fight significantly smaller mobs as a spellcaster in order to stand any chance. In groups, this problem is exasperated by the higher level mobs. In the wee little levels, the disparity between these two areas was small. As my levels climb, the difference between what I am able to kill, or help to kill, in each area has grown. From what I've heard of other players, it will continue to grow.

A solution:
Pull spell resist chances in line with mob dodge stats (accounting for the fact that weapons can affect dodge, while, to my knowledge, magic amps can't affect resist chance). This should mean that fighters and casters will suffer equally as mob level increases.

Another special note: As a software dev myself, I don't propose to dictate solutions to anyone -- these solutions are just constructive examples of the kinds of steps that could be taken to aleviate the problems as I see them. That's why they say "A" solution instead of "THE" solution. Please do offer constructive criticism on the solutions I've posted. If nothing else, I hope that such dialog will be a springboard for solutions from the devs.

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The next issue: Ranged combat is borked.

The problem: Being a ranged combatm fighter is, at present, nearly an untennable position, in my opinion. View the following contrast:

As a melee fighter, I hop into town, pick up some workable weapons and armor, and wander into the woods to start my career as "Scourge of the Bodac". After a few dozen levels, and a few thousand bodac burgers, I decide that crafting might be a nice addition to my skills, and I devote some down time to increasing crafting. There's no rush -- as cool as my custom-made bodaconator 3000 with enhanced stylized grip for reduced carple-tunnel may sound, the store-bought generi-sword gets the job done. If I get really impatient, I can track down a crafter to make me a set, for a one-time fee.

As a ranged fighter, I hop into town, pick up a gun... and, with a sinking feeling, realize there IS no ammunition on noob island. Okay... Well, I put my dreams of ranged combat away for at least a dozen levels, and work hard as a melee thug, all the while dreaming of my true calling. With a dozen or so melee levels, I find I now have enough money and materials to learn to craft ammunition. After a huge amount of time spent raising craft, I can now, at last, begin to work on ranged combat -- many, many hours after the melee figher got his start. (Okay, you say. It's noob island, no one gets what they want. Well, I talked to a lot of "ranged combat hopefuls" on Matis Noob-land. I hope they stick it through -- but I don't give very good odds on that. Cater to noobs, and get them all as hooked as I am!)

But now, the real "fun" begins. I realize that, in addition to crafting, I also NEED harvesting. So, I start down that path... and after many, many MORE hours, I'm a passable harvester. Ready to go now? No, not quite. Now, I must hunt high and low over all creation searching out materials for my ammo. I quickly find that I easily spend twice as long forraging as I do killing. I could contract the work out to a professional forrager/crafter -- if I want to keep another player fully employed day-in, day-out, forraging and crafting ammunition for just me. And, of course, if I enjoy the logistics of trying to track down another player every time I run out of rounds. Which, as demonstrated in the last paragraph, is ALL THE TIME.

Okay, so I'm only getting in a third as much klling as the melee fighter. At least I'm persuing my dream -- or am I? Even the most cursory look at the stats will show otherwise. The firearms in this game are so far below the melee weapons in damage over time that the bodacs laugh when I pull my pistol (I can hear them, you know...) The low damage per shot means I go through entire clips on a single mob (a mob half the level my melee fighter is killing with ease, btw). The low shots per minute means I'm getting much more dead.

The single, positive tradeoff for all this effort? You get one free shot -- sometimes. The laughable ranges of firearms can be covered by any mob in the game in less than the reload time. This means that for non-agro mobs, you get one, and ONLY one, free shot before they swarm you. Agro mobs often get you before you get even that paltry advantage.

As a melee figher, if I REALLY wanted that "one free shot" I could spend time learning offensive magic. Given that the melee figher then won't need crafting and harvesting, I'm only supporting one extra skill tree instead of two.

In the end, persuing ranged combat means I wind up with an extremely weak fighting charcter who spends far more time forraging and crafting than fighting.

A solution:
Eh... ranged combat needs either a LOT of tweaks, or a huge overhaul. I don't have any overhaul suggestions, but here are some tweaks that would help:

First and foremost, make ammo available! The vendors sell ammunition, you say? Maybe you haven't looked close. On noob island, there wasn't a single bullet to be found (well, there where a whole lot of stacks of "zero" bullets available -- maybe the pach fixed this. I don't know, I was "voted off the island" by then) In the early towns, the ammunition does about the same damage as the daggers that are sold -- with firearms having half the rate of fire a dagger does. For Jena's sake, I make better ammunition from yubo teeth! The cost? about the same for 24 shots as that dagger (the one with twice the damge over time as those 24 shots you just bought) Make DECENT amunition available for sale for the "casual" gamer who doesn't want to persue three of the four career choices just to be a ranged combat fighter. Reduce the cost so that he doesn't have to take a side job to keep up with costs that no other class has to endure. Perhapse double the amount of ammunition created by crafting. This would mean I'd only spend equal parts crafting and killing -- which MIGHT be worth it if firearm damages where raised to the same range as melee weapons, or had some other good tradeoffs.

Bring damages up, and push ranges out, WAY out! Any spellcaster can toss off blasts with FAR greater range than the vast majority of ranged combat weapons. (in addition, he can do it faster, and with more damage, and without crafting ALL THE TIME . . . well, you get the idea) Give some incentive to those willing to devote so much of their play or dappers (why IS the money green goo anyway?) to supporting their equipment. At the very least, push it up to the same damage per quality level over time as melee weapons have.

Make amunition more portable... stack it in groups larger than 24, and make it very, very light (and, um, whatever word you can think of for "un-bulky". Antonym of combersome: comberless?) so that the vast amounts you'll need can be transported with ease.

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The Issue: Solo gameplay is a suicide option

The Problem: Solo gets you dead. Fast, more often than not. Now, I didn't join until post-patch 1. Word on the "street" is it wasn't always so.

Yet a third special note: Don't jump on me about this being an MMORPG and that I SHOULD group. I _DO_ group. In fact, Ryzom is the best group-playing game I've EVER played. Why? no classes -- so ANY two or more people can make an effective group. Even two melee fighters often have enough heal to buff back up after a battle. Group play is one of this game's strongest points. I have very little difficulty finding groups, and I play at the least popular times (midnight and later, EST). I'm normally quite reclusive in my gaming, but this game is changing that for me because of the ease of grouping. But sometimes I either don't want the hassle of group logistics, or just feel like some solo play.

A Solution: The solution, in my opinion, lies NOT with tweaking the mobs. I like dangerous mobs. I like combat in Ryzom a great deal, in fact. As a solo character, the problem I find is NOT that the mobs are too tough. The problem is, that after fighting a SINGLE mob, I'm ready to limp home -- through gingo-infested woods. This leaves me either trying to sneak past a horde of wild dogs, where being spotted by even ONE means death (and "sneaking" isn't in the game. Though, I would LOVE a stealth skill tree, there isn't one currently. Heh... actually, I REALLY like that Idea... spymasters of Atys, unite and e-mail your Devs for rougeish skills!) or, alternately, taking a nice, quiet nap -- in the middle of dingo (heh... gingo) spawning ground. Both mean time out of your game play, and, often, a huge chance for death. The easiest way to fix this, in my opinion, is to allow solo players some way to heal between combats. And by "heal" I mean "more than once every few minutes." -- the self heal is great in combat, but BETWEEN combats it isn't what is needed. Allow crafting of healing potions. Make healing potions have to be equiped as a "weapon" or something, to make them quite useless in combat (so as not to severely unbalance game play). This would allow solo players, with some investment in crafting and forraging (which would make it still slower than group, but without the necessary logisics -- a good balance for solo play, in my opinion). Solo would still be dangerous -- easier to get swarmed by a whole pack of dogs as one player. But it would at least allwo you to fight the dogs one-on-one with some chance of getting back to town -- on your feet, that is.

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Okay, well, this post is WAY longer than I meant it to be. I had hoped to be playing by now in fact But I hope my views as a new player on these issues is useful to someone, in some way. Now, I've got levels to raise, so I'll end this mammoth post. Enjoy and respond, I just felt it necssary to throw in my $0.02 (USD, pre-tax, exchange rates may vary.)

I have to admit, I really like this post, good criticizms of the games biggest weak areas, and good ideas as to how they would be fixed, props for taking the time to type this up!

Nicely written.

Pointed out some problems and offered some reasonable solutions.

Wonderful post. And very well written.

Wonderful post.

Great job!

Good post, good critisism. Some small notes dough:

I can't tell anything about off. magic, coz I never went down that path, but as for melee, I don't think you are obligated to group. As a pretty decent melee fighter I still can solo mobs wich give me 2k+ xp, but then I'll have a lot of downtime to restore my hp/stam. So, grouping isn't needed, but when you do, you'll probly will level much faster due to less downtime.

As for ranged combat, it isn't balanced right, thats correct. But I don't think it costs to much at all, when you will be a higher level harvester / crafter its easy to get a full packer of ammo in an hour or 2 - 3, but still the damage isn't what its supposed to be.

About the community: I can see that the american community tends to be a bit more negative about the game. When reading the german, english and frensh forums I do see a very different (more positive) atmosphere. Maybe its due cultural differences or different marketing stratigies in the us, I dunno. My point is, its not all flaming what goes around, and once logged on into the servers you should have noticed that almost all the players are very helpful and friendly.

mrozzy wrote:
As for ranged combat, it isn't balanced right, thats correct. But I don't think it costs to much at all, when you will be a higher level harvester / crafter its easy to get a full packer of ammo in an hour or 2 - 3, but still the damage isn't what its supposed to be.

That was part of his criticism of ranged combat, that it requires one take up crafting and harvesting to aquire any really useful ammount of ammunition on a regular basis.

Edit : Anyone think it would be practical to start another petition thread listing the weakest areas of the game that really need addressing? I mean honestly I would rather Nevy address these issues now, and get around to adding things like encyclopedias and such later (personlly, I think that balancing the game out should even come before more content, but that is just imho.)

I personally think that all forms of damage, of the same level to do this damage (ie if you need to be a certain level to use a sword, a spell or a gun) should ALL do the EXACT damage per second as each other. Do I agree with some weapons firing/casting/swinging slower or faster than others? You bet, but I don't think any weapon should emerge as the end all be all of mob slaying.

Range weapons need an overhaul. I stopped using guns about week two post release, during the upside down materials crafting bug. When using Yubo teeth was perferrable to using Choice Q20 mats...the results were topsy turvy.

I agree with your stance on soloing, a LARGE part of the draw to this game, for more than a few people, has been the ability to solo AND group. I enjoy grouping like the next player, but I don't always log on in time to grab a good group, or play at hours that the average "sane person" has LONG since logged off and slept for a few hours.

Both soloing and grouping should be a viable option, for all classes in game. The one thing I didn't like about other games was having to be EITHER a solo class OR a grouping class, I like to do both.

I agree about the mage/melee leveling gap, it started early with me, since I was HEAVY harvester and only fought at all in self defense. Once I did get magic, it took forever killing mobs MUCH lower than my melee levels to catch up. Grouping helped, since I could pop a mob with a spell and heal, pre skill tree split it all goes into magic, but since that skill tree split is EARLY (21 I think) I had already left, so when I healed and nuked I got split xp, but grouping xp was pretty fast...so pre patch one...it was viable...now it is not nearly viable enough. (haven't even downloaded the most recent patch...much less played it, so I have NO comment on that patch, my comment is PRE current patch).

The MAIN tweek I think that will help the MOST players is one that I THINK this patch addressed, I will test out if it was ENOUGH of a tweek to satisfy me sometime tomorrow. It was of course the hyper steroid diet the Gingos seemed to be one post patch one. One night I can kill a three star equivelent gingo, post patch one...I couldn't take down a ONE star. There were a few tweeks that brought leaving the city in groups of less than 50 much less suicidal, but gingos were still WAY overpowered, and gorai were almost as over powered.

NO skill, of a player OR a mob should ever be a land it and the opponent is dead, IE the stun of Kippees or blind of gingos. NO mob skill should ever be obviously MORE powerful than a player of the same level with the SAME level skill. (if I land a blind on a mob, it should blind the mob JUST as much as if it blinded me...unless it is IMMUNE to such a spell).

Prepatch one the NA forums was pretty tame. In game was even more so. Patch one did SERIOUS harm to the players, even the most FAN of Fanbois got a SERIOUS wake up call about the time they got their tenth or twelveth death penalty the night of patch one. I know of several players that would get rid of a DP only to get another, and another.

I, however, feel that while the damage was done, time CAN heal it, if patches are timely (once a week or further apart, to allow for THOROUGH testing of each patch), and each issue is taken seriously. I still think the CS team is FAR more responsive in this game than ANY other game I have either betaed OR played post release. I think the CS/dev teams have MUCH more respect and understanding of the players than all the other games I have played. For one, the CS team speaks/understands English better than some out there, and for two they are not insulting. And for Three, they reply some time before the next patch (EQ reply time IN game, three to five hours, sometimes longer during prime time, sometimes NOT at ALL after midnight. Horizons, NO in game GM presence OTHER than to lead an event, out of game ticket reply time in the hours to DAYS time frame. Lineage two, most of the GM's didn't even speak English as their first language, many could not communicate even the most BASIC of thoughts in English. L2 gm's were RUDE, and often would flush a petition in less than ten seconds, before you could reply back to them.)

In short, I think the game needs work, but I honestly feel that the GM/devs can and WILL address these issues promptly.

goood post

i agree with most stuff except the soloing part, soloing is possible it's just you have to be careful about where you're going. basically just stick with mobs that are around your level and you should be fine. the stars are there for a reason


other than that it's well written and worded

thexdane wrote:goood post

i agree with most stuff except the soloing part, soloing is possible it's just you have to be careful about where you're going. basically just stick with mobs that are around your level and you should be fine. the stars are there for a reason


other than that it's well written and worded

Yeah the secret to soloing after patch 1, is just to forget about getting 2000 exp per kill. Find a mob that gives you between 400 and 1500 exp and kill kill kill.