Ryzom

There has been a lot of speculation and discussion regarding the upcoming changes to the way harvesting works, and it has been stated that gentle actions will become far more important.

With this in mind, I decided to spend some time today trying to simulate how I believe harvesting will work in the future, and wanted to share my results with everyone.

At present, I use a mixture of aggressive and gentle actions, with terrain specialisation on both prospect and forage actions. I also change source modes when it suits me to (not going to get into a discussion on the rights and wrongs of this, simply stating that's what I do). I also stay slightly back from the source to avoid gas clouds.

As I understand it, with the changes we will have to be right on top of the source and will no longer see the source mode, so basically what I did was take whatever mode was presented, and stayed on top of the source no matter what (short of dying). I made an all aggressive action which was as follows:

Agressive speed 4
Agressive rate 3
Agressive quality 4
-64 action credit

Using the above action with a 1 minute source time I can get a maximum of 8 mats from a q100 source. When I tried this out I found the following, depending on source mode:

Mode 0 - gas damage 110 to 126 per tick - blowup 530 to 641
Mode 1 - gas damage 16 per tick - blowup 80
Mode 2 - gas damage 15 per tick - blowup 60
Mode 3 - source expired without blowing up
Mode 4 - source expired without blowing up
Mode 5 - gas damage 114 per tick - blowup 522 to 641

I used this action for a sufficient number of sources to collect a full stack of q100 choice mats.

I then changed to an all gentle action as below:

Gentle speed 2
Gentle rate 1
Gentle quality 4
-32 action credit

I proceeded to repeat the experiment in the same area with the same q100 choice sources, and again collected a full stack. Results were as follows:

Mode 0 - gas damage 110 to 126 per tick - blowup 530 to 641
Mode 1 - gas damage 16 per tick - blowup 80
Mode 2 - gas damage 15 per tick - blowup 60
Mode 3 - source expired without blowing up
Mode 4 - source expired without blowing up
Mode 5 - gas damage 114 per tick - blowup 522 to 641

As you can see, the damage resulting from gas and explosions was exactly the same. The only difference was it took a little longer to collect the stack as I could get a max of 3 per source rather than 8, although this was partially offset by the fact that the slow digging and low focus use resulted in very little downtime. Also note in both cases I removed the terrain specialisation from the action, to let the stanzas speak for themselves, as it were.

While it's true that the sources blew up less often, gas clouds and explosions did the same damage as with the aggressive action, which leads me to wonder whether gentle actions are in fact gentle enough? With the aggressive actions I was limited by the amount of focus, and with the gentle actions I was limited by the amount of HP, and on several occasions I had to step back to avoid dying, at which point I stopped the action so as not to skew the results.

So, my question is this - if we are going to have to rely more on gentle actions in future, will those actions be modified to reduce the damage caused by Mode 0 and 5 gas and explosions? If not, I fear many will simply give up foraging, or at least greatly reduce the time they spend on it as it may well become simply too difficult for many to see a worthwhile result.

As a disclaimer, let me finish by saying I am not (in principal) against the proposed changes, only that I believe that if these changes are indeed necessary, then gentle actions need to become a far more viable alternative to aggressive actions than they are currently.

As always, I welcome the comments of everyone...

Hummmmm

So far ....

Material Specialisation has be changed to stop ql extracts above the ql stanza used.

Net effect: reducing the possible XP to the ql stanza to an every decreasing value, until the next ql stanza becomes available. Benefits, increased rise in the rate the ql rises to maximum. As the rate stanza uses less focus than the material specialisation. this benfit is seen at rates greater than 'rate 4'.

Becuase you have to buy 8 material specialisations, to cover all materials and by the time you have 'rate 4', the slight advantage of a fast ql rise is lost.

I must be missing some information on harvesting:

Terrain Specialisations - increase quanity and reduce aggressiveness of the harvest spot.

This is not true - source modes are random and therefore terrain specialisation doesn't reduce the aggressiveness of the action. All source modes are perdicable base on the mode, not the action.

EG any extraction on a mode 1 is 'safe' (if you have 400+ HP and don't stand in the gas cloud.)

All other modes carry a risk of no harvest or big damage.

I am currently harvesting:

I use the following:

Prospect: time 35", supreme quality (grade), occasionally I include Knowledge.
Extract: rate 3, speed 3, ql 100

At lvl 84 harvest I can't get high ql mats and I can extract a maximum of 4xql99 (due to bad checks on max ql vs rate 3)

I have 16 lvls of this to go ... my xp is reducing each level and there is nothing I can do to change this.

If I ask a higher level harvester to help me with greater source time, I actually get less XP (no prospect XP)

If I ask a friend to help will care plans, due to the random, action related, source mode. They can actually kill the source, rather than saving it. (please do start hitting players who help with source presivation etc.... its a possiblity not a definate)

I believe harvesting is heading in the wrong direction.....

Harvesting is a key driver to the Ryzom Economy!

Where we were pre-mat spec change patch.

Harvesters who knew about material specialisation could get 3k XP from a single Item pull.

Power leveling could be acheived with a short source time and an extract with material spec.

Source modes could be manipulated to find the 'mode 1' for safe harvest.

Levels were easy to achive in areas where 3 or 4 good spots could be harvested in rotation.

**** This must have been seen as bad as the material specialisation was changed ****

After Patch

Power leveling can still be acheived with short source time and a low focus single material extract.

Source modes can still be manipulated to find the 'mode 1' for safe harvest.

Levels are still easy to achive in areas where 3 or 4 good spots could be harvested in rotation.

**** Whats in store for harvesting ****

Based on info around the forums about whats on the ATS.

Source mode visiblity will be removed.
Net effect - A havester now has a random source type and must deal with the effects.

However - You can see how a source reacts from the movement of the bars!!!

After watching for a while you can see the signs of the source mode after the first few hits with you pick.

This will mean that the harvester will have to start more sources which will then be abandoned to avoid death/depletion.


Gas won't be avoidable, more reason to move off a source and on to the next.

The removal of all player control over ql extracted and XP gain.

So to summaries.......

Harvesting will become a risky, random task. The repeative aspect will remain and all the interesting aspects have been removed.

A sensible guild will gather a team of harvesters with a patient bomb healer - for mass harvests.

With the combination of a healer + harvester - gas/explosions will become unimportant.

Harvesters will become more dependant of HP than focus.

Get yourself 1000+ hit points sit on a source and take the damage.


I had high hopes for harvesting - in early beta it was a game of chance, it seem to be returning to this Russian Roulette.

In FBT - we didn't have chance to really look at it in depth. Double Tap was once of the main researchers of Harvest and I remember how disappointed he was when the harvested materials were 'dumbed' down to all shell=point/blade etc.

basically the changes I have seen so far and the ones that are rumoured to come, give me little faith in the future of this profession.

Gentle vs aggressive = more focus, little benefit
Terrain spec = little to no useful benefit
Finding specific materials = useful to start but word of mouth is more reliable.


I wish I was alone in my feelings about the future of harvest, but judging by the number of harvesters rushing to get high levels. They fear the change too.

Not all change is for the good.

I hope that I am wrong in my fears.....I stopped using magic after the huge hike in SP cost vs benefits vs speed. I was partially wrong with magic. I was still an OK skill.

I am sure that you have hidden benefits within the new harvest system and look forward to finding them, but once we do I am sure they will be removed.

People who know me will know that I am normally really positive about Ryzom and the community.

Ryzom needs its harvesters to survive, without them .... the future is shop mats.

I don't like the look of that future, but I will as always wait and see. I hope to Jena I am wrong with my predictions.

I am looking for reassurance, not to flame of complain. I have listed as much info based on my experiences. I have tried to stay neutral which has been very hard to do in this case.

Whats does everyone else think?

Actually, i cannot agree with your observations.

I have tested with the following combinations:

Harmful Speed 1 (+2)
Harmful Rate 3 (+20)?
Harmful Quality 7 (+40)
Focus Credit (-64)

on a source time of 30' (yes i am using the 1mat version).

Mode 1 is safe no matter what i used
Mode 4: i can get 2 mats or source life is killed

Mode 2,3,5: explosions hitting for 1280, Gas hit for 340 per tick (yes it hurts)

Now the other version but still a 30' time:
Gentle Speed 1 (+6)
Gentle Rate 3 (+30)
Gentle Quality 7 (+56)
Focus Credit (-100)

Mode 1,2,3,4,5: no explosions or gas clouds, 2 materials per 30'

maybe its a problem at lower sources, but the higher quality you go (in my case Q250), there is a huge difference between gentle and Harmful. I have also used Terrain Spec. option and i can see the effects clearly.

but i agree on one topic:
removing the display of the mode is like removing the mob name and the level indicators from a mob.

As for leveling and speed, i partially agree on the changes. with the material specc working, you could go from lvl 50? to lvl 200 with always max exp of 3k per source. at 204 the exp starts to drop as you cannot get higher Q than 250. At currently lvl 233 a harvester gains 1760 exp for a source. i am closing in on needing 100*Q250 node extracts for 1 level and all i see its going further down.

Yes i want lvl 240 before patch 1 for one reason: be able to still get Q250 mats.

Thank you for the enlightenment

I have fallen into the deep pit of negativity that is in abundance on the forums.

Good to see someone with a good knowledge. May faith in the Dev team has been restored and I will now only beleive the negative when I see it with my own eyes.

I had a conversation with a friend only a short while ago.

I had got the impression from the posts on the forums that the aggro around Matis towns was 'hard' and the gingos and ragus were really tough. Now that I have reached Matis with my Tryker (a low 52 Fighter) I have found that it is 'easy' to take on a number of Baying Gingos and Scowling and below are more of a pest than a fight. When this is compared to the Cloppers of Tryker. A Baying will still kill me in a solo fight and a scowling is a challenge.

It appears that most of the issues highlighted in the game are related to either player perception or a lack of experimentation.

I know I have been guilty of this with harvest.

Once again thanks Cstrahd.

My observations:

There is a marked difference between Harmful and Gentle extraction. The benefits for Gentle extract are only really seen when using all Gentle actions rather than a mix of Harmful/Gentle, and are more noticeable with longer source times. Adding Terrain extraction and/or Mat spec (in its current form) also adds extra benefits.

For sources that explode or give gas, the magnitude of the damage is caused by a few factors, including your harvest level, your base HP and the Grade and quality of the mat being extracted. A mode 0 source will produce the most damage.
(In contrast to 2 of the previous posters, i dont think i have ever had a mode 2 source explode before it expired)

Hiding the source mode (Patch 1). Im undecided as to whether this is a good or bad thing. It will certainly introduce more risks, though these can be minimised by using appropriate extraction methods, and a harvester will have to adapt his actions to get the best results each time. I think a better solution though would have been to set a permanent mode for each source at the start of the first extraction action, and this mode remain for the duration of the source life, (regardless of what other/changed actions were applied subsequently), but still displaying the mode in the system info to give some indication of how the source is likely to react. A skilled harvester should have this knowledge. (perhaps an extra stanza would be appropriate for this)

borg9 wrote:Harvesting is a key driver to the Ryzom Economy!

Totally agree with this, so i am dissapointed with the way XP is allocated for harvest. I believe that more XP should be given for pulling multiple mats from a source. A skilled harvester, in my eyes, is one who can sustain the source long enough to be able to get a number of mats from it, and so fulfil his "role" as a supplier of mats. I disagree with what seems to be cstrahd's (and others) philosophy, of pulling 1 or 2 mats just to get the max XP. (This is not meant as a flame, more to point out the flaw in the system up until now)

cstrahd wrote:Yes i want lvl 240 before patch 1 for one reason: be able to still get Q250 mats.

My question to this is... why ?? Nobody can actually use these for anything at the moment


There has been talk of a harvest "revamp" for a while now (pre-FBT), and it will be interesting to see the actual changes in effect once Patch 1 arrives. I see lots of adapting and experimenting ahead of us.

*Edit* 1 small addition. I hope that the source mechanics will be "fixed" in patch 1. By this i mean, at the moment sources can explode or deplete when the meters are at 40-50% full, which is extremely annoying.

Well, i reached lvl 240 today in the morning.

Why you ask, very simple:
with patch 1, you can get (your level) +10 materials, which results, e.g. as a lvl 200, in Q210 materials , which results in 1k exp.

as lvl 230 you get arround 9xp for a Q207 material, for a 232 material it was arround 800xp, just think about the time you need to harvest.

I needed (which is still very fast, of course, no discussion about this) 1 day for 2 1/2 levels from 237 -> 240, and it really totally drained me.

another reason: i dont have any room for new stacks on my packers or myself, so i simply wanted to stick with Q250

I have yet to decide if i go to 250 or not, as with current rate of 1.4 xp per source and nearly 200 sources for a level, it simply takes long and is boring. It will get more interesting with new patch, but also more dangerous.

Patch 1:
No more mode change is implemented. Once the source was touched it stays in that mode, but the mode will not be displayed. In addition to that, it seems that they have implemented way more modes. Yes, maybe there is a skill to 'see' the mode, but i really doubt it, as the first goal of the DEVS is currently to slow down the advancement of players, because they think that will keep the players longer in Ryzom.

Hummmm...

It me again.

One question I have to ask is.......

You leveled to allow you to continue to level after Patch 1.

You say that leveling for 237-240 was a real bore.

You say you have a full bag and packers.

My question is why?

To me it seems that you level was the most important thing. Grats on reaching 240, thats some going.

After patch 1 and you have got you last 10 levels, what next?

If you have full mules I can only assume that you don't have a customer base for you mats.

You will now be able to grind your way up the crafting tree very very fast.

estimated 12 crafts a level @ max ql mat and skill.

time to gain 1 level approximately 5 mins.

If you can dedicate the same time to crafting as you have to harvest.

You will have capped out your character in record time.

What will you do next?

As for you comment it will get more interesting/dangerous after the new patch. I would same nah, a source time of 30" and full gentle will mean any source mode they put in will be safe. If its not the lower level harvesters who will have to become dependant on the gentle methods, will be very dead very quick.

I really hate the fact that games are dictated by 'the fastest player'.

The majority of changes that I have see in introduced have not been to make the game more enjoyable. They have been introduced to 'slow' the fastest player.

Sorry Nevrax - there is another type of player in the game. 'The casual gamer' with only 2-3 hours (when really pushing it) that are effectively rendered stationary by progression balances.

You have reduced XP, you have capped XP, you have completely redesigned the XP system. You will never be able to stop players like the above dedication 24 hours to gain 2 levels. They are not playing the game to be part of the world, to shape it, to enjoy it. They are trading their time, for a number that makes them feel special.

I will be just as happy to wander around the world of Atys as a level 1 fighter as I would to be a level 250 fighter. If I need to be a level to do the think I want then I would make that a goal. But the above post just highlights that everyone in the game has different goals and objectives.

Visible XP is feeding the power levelers. XP seem to be the major driver for people. You are planning on hiding the source mode.

Then consider the following:

Hide the stats on the materials.
Hide the damage on the weapon.
Hide the protection on the armours.

In fact hide every possible indicator in the game.

Then when people hunt, they will approach it with a little fear.
When people harvest, they will be a bit less brash.

The above post has angered me a little, because its the way the game is view by some many players.

Not as a adventure, a world to be lived in and explored, but as a pile of numbers and statistics.

Before you start beating on me.....

I do say woot I gained a level, I do have pointless fights with scowling cloppers just so I can get stronger to allow me to pointlessly fight baying cloppers. So basically, I find myself think why?

I play games cas I enjoy the experience of playing.
I like Online games because of the interaction with others.
I like competion, on a level playing feild.

Ryzom is a time sink. The more time you throw at it the more 'powerful' you become. Its not PvP FPS game its a sit and watch the Yubo game. Its about balancing work (leveling) and play (interaction with others).

ho hum back to work.

borg9 wrote: To me it seems that you level was the most important thing. Grats on reaching 240, thats some going.

Well, yes and no. On the German server someone got to lvl 250 from scratch in just under 3 weeks. (at least the new patch may address this ridiculous situation to an extent).
Does it make them a harvester ? *shrug*

borg9 wrote: I really hate the fact that games are dictated by 'the fastest player'.

Eh... the big problem is that those 'fast players' will have their max level / skill whatever before the game slows everyone else down.

I agree about the visibility of statistics, all that is really needed for a game would be the communication interface, and visual clues but not numbers: a monster bleeding a lot, looking more tired as its hp go down, a resource glowing more intensively before exploding, or a larger pile of goods for a larger resource.... armors showing signs of being worn out... but in the end that game would become a memory hole, and people wouldnt be more happy than they are now.

hivewasp wrote:Eh... the big problem is that those 'fast players' will have their max level / skill whatever before the game slows everyone else down.

I agree about the visibility of statistics, all that is really needed for a game would be the communication interface, and visual clues but not numbers: a monster bleeding a lot, looking more tired as its hp go down, a resource glowing more intensively before exploding, or a larger pile of goods for a larger resource.... armors showing signs of being worn out... but in the end that game would become a memory hole, and people wouldnt be more happy than they are now.

So lets protest!

Make XP easy to get. The power levelers will hit the cap and bugger off.

Then the ones that want to play it as a RPG will have the world to ourselves