Ryzom

I have a few issues I'd like to raise.

1. the identification of materials, and matching between of, the equipment and the [flora and fauna];
   and
2. the realistic, detailed techniques for which these materials can be crafted.

Sorry I'm not posting on the general forum. I'm sure a lot of regular users will not see this thread. This post is a little complicated for a newcomer, because I'm actually an old player using a trial account. (which is why I can't post in the general forum. Perhaps if this thread gains any interest, someone could post a link to here from the general forum.)

So I wondered if anyone put any thought into how the crafting system in the game could be done in the real world. (either the developers or the players experiencing and interpreting the game) Like how you can build all the things out of all those materials.

I haven't looked into much about different production methods throughout (Earth) history (which would probably be more applicable to the technology of Ryzom than modern Earth methods), so I don't have much experience in this. I did read mention of a method of sharpening wood using fire, called fire hardening. It can be used for edges as well as points.

It seems like most objects are formed out of multiple smaller objects. Bladed weapons like daggers, swords, and axes don't seem to have the blades be single pieces like they are on Earth. That makes it all the more mysterious what methods they could use to make it a practical weapon (or armor). (It also might explain why things fall apart so quickly. )
I suspect that the shaft parts might also be part of the blade, to help give it a strong support.


Another aspect to this is that the appearance of the crafted objects in the game seems to suggest they have a different balance of components than the recipes would suggest.
Matis weapons and lighter armor look to be made from more plants. Their specialty in plants, as well as their racial weapons being enchanted with poison would add credibility to that.
Zorai weapons look metallic. Amber seems to be a magical focus, and I would suspect amber or hardened sap may be responsible for this, as well as the golden glow of medium quality blades.
Tryker stuff looks a lot like metal, but I'm guessing there's a lot of shells, or possibly sap-coated cloth?
Fyros I would think use a lot of fire hardened wood.
There's a lot more detail there though... every item looks like it's made from a limited number of things.

and that leads me into another section... if the appearance of one matches up with the appearance of another...

what animal parts (or plants) look like. The inventory icons are not what you should be judging their appearance on, it's what the actual animal looks like.
For plants, this is much more difficult. We know what an Arana looks like, so we can get an idea what it's parts look like, but we don't know what the heck a Yana or Eyota or Motega tree look like. or even more elusive, what shells and seeds and such might look like. I'm not sure anyone's attempted to deduce which trees are which in the game. I imagine there are a limited number of types of trees, and a limited number of named plant parts. Perhaps some of them are more common in one land than another, and perhaps some of the names are more indicative of one race than another, which would help narrow it down. The colors available might also help narrow it down, if it were logical based on lore; rather than merely being gameplay balanced, which is more likely. Unless certain colors are more common in some lands and it happens to match up with the visual flora, which would be amazing.


Another thing I find curious is how items such as sap can be used as "armor clips" (which I've never heard of) and "firing pin", and how oil can be used as stuffing and how armor has stuffing.

I don't know if it's a rough translation, not very thorough consideration during design, or whether somehow sap is completely different in Ryzom, but looking on wikipedia, sap is primarily water. One of the two kinds of sap has sugar in it (like the kind that makes maple syrup), which could give it some consistency. But who's making armor clips out of maple syrup candy? :>
Here's an interesting factoid: "Other liquid compounds found in plants or exuded by plants, such as latex, resins or mucilage, are sometimes incorrectly referred to as sap." (You'll notice Ryzom has both resin and sap. For the ignorant such as me, that could be confusing if you were thinking about it in detail.)

Now, for armor to be made primarily with resin and fiber makes sense to me. You could probably make something similar to fiberglass with that.
But oil into stuffing? What is "stuffing" in armor anyway? Wikipedia can't find anything on stuffing other than it being related to food or taxidermy. I don't think taxidermy stuffing is really applicable to armor crafting.
What objects are used for stuffing in addition to oil? Fangs, secretion, and wings. That's quite an odd variety. What do these things have in common?
What objects can be used for lining in addition to resin? tooth, trunk, & moss. I don't see how you could make good armor with cloth and moss the same as cloth and resin.

Hrm... just read something about resin.
"Solidified resin from which the volatile terpene components have been removed by distillation is known as rosin." and this rosin "softens and melts under the influence of heat". Maybe not so good to make fiberglass-like armor. Then again, it doesn't say what temperature.

While I congratulate your enthusiasm in finding explanations to all these mysteries, I´d just like to remind you that we´re quite lucky.
Our crafting system, while somewhat confusing, yes, is far more "realistic" than, say "screwing the lid off a jar" in a certain other game

But I digress, I agree with you that there are certain inconsistencies and be glad that you´re playing English (I do too),
because the German translation is even more weird.
But mainly I think these problems did arise due to some confusion in translations from French to English.

The "stuffing" in fact would be more like "padding" on the in, or outside of armor or boots. Inside like a Gambeson.
Normally worn beneath the actual armor to add a bit of comfort (no more sore joints from the armors edges / warmth) and extra padding.
On the outside it referrers to the actual armor encasing the body.
On some designs you can clearly see their origin if you look closely.
Textures similar to Mektoub hide and wood, or carapace are frequent.

The "Clip" has been an unfortunate case of confused translations again.
In the Ranged Weapons field, it refers to the "Ammunition-Clip/Magazine", in Armor Crafting it´s used to describe buckles and clasps.

Fibers are in my opinion a generalization of all kinds of natural fabrics. Like Cotton, silk and linen.
Of course nobody would really like to play through their whole production process, so many things have been generalized for the sake of easiness of play.
(But I hear "Vanguard" did go that way, up to a point.)

In bladed weapons I´d go for the composite approach too, but I´d be more inclined to the bones used as blades and/or hilts.
Ligaments would be used to tie the whole thing together and add a certain level of sturdiness too, for dried (turned to leather) ligaments are pretty hard to break.
Bones are one of the toughest materials used for crafting in early civilizations, apart from stone.
Dried bone had the distinct advantage that it was easily shape-able with a stone knife,
tended not to break as easy as a stone edge and held its edge longer.

Fire hardening is a valid, tried and true method to get extremely sturdy weapons that last for quite some time,
but once damaged the wood tends to splinter very fine and quite nasty in fact. So, fitting to the Ryzom model, such a weapon could never be "repaired".

Of course many models do look far too sophisticated to be crafted from such "primitive" materials, but hey, thats artistic license for you

Tryker Stuff´s "metal-sheen" is probably Mother of Pearl or Shellac, as evidenced in the many shells and corals they use.

Zoraï Stuff, does look the most "modern" to me, despite them probating to be the most nature adherent people But I agree to their use of Amber,
a shortstory floating somewhere around the old lore provided a proper (read magical) explanation to as how they can actually shape the stone that well.
It´s probably a variant of the process used to to store information in amber cubes. (which has by no means a scientific explanation in RL as far as I know )

Matis stuff does little to fit its ingredients, yes. But with a little bit of artistic leeway we can come up with explanations for that too.
I myself once wrote a story depicting the actual process of crafting an Amplifier, and I was able to come up with what I hope are fitting places for all materials used. I think I have to translate it one of these days...

Fyros. Yes, lots of dried, hardened wood, bones and carapaces, but also lots of hides and "fibers" evident.

The inventory Icons are just there for keeping track of your stuff, I don´t care how they look actually.
But still, remember things are often shaped in the process of crafting and in RL simply "unscrewing a lid" or "poking a needle at some leather sheet",
or "hitting some piece of wood with a small hammer", won´t accomplish anything Like I said earlier,
many things simply had to be generalized for the sake of gameplay and I think we´re lucky the way it is.

All in all it helps to not be too literal minded with MMORPGs.
But Ryzom made some very nice comparisons to real world "primitive" stuff and "adjusted" and "modernized" it to fit its world.

CU
Acridiel

Ahhh. I'm a clever girl. I found the answer to my question.
I was wondering about the original French names for the material types/functions, as well as the material names and equipment.
I'm curious about material functions such as "armor clip" and "stuffing", as well as if any of the material names change during translation. eg: dante sap, enola sap, Mitexi bark; or some of the words foreign to both English and French like dzao fiber; or descriptive names like glue, moon, dung (all resins).
the old Ryzom.raum.com site features multiple languages. Let's see what it has to say...

unchanged: amber, fiber, wood, bark, seed, resin
(Strangely, some of these have names that don't look French, like "oath bark".
Descriptive words such as "glue" and "moon" were translated correctly.
Sève Ardente was translated correctly enough into redhot sap. The result I got was [ember] glowing.)
Unless the website is inaccurate, all the animal names are EXACTLY the same. I suspect it's inaccurate, because plenty of names don't look very French-compatible.

changes:
shell, Mignonne; translation: cute. in-game text: cuty (which isn't even a word. I'm guessing they meant cutey?)
shell, Cornée; translation: [feminine noun] cornea. or to turn down the corner of [page]; page cornée: dog-eared page. in-game text: horny (what??? I have a feeling it's supposed to be a cornea shell rather than a dog-eared shell. It's more eye-like than page-like.)
modified and purified materials don't seem to be listed in French at all, and at least one of them seems to be a typo. "Purified Tekorn Bamble" I'm guessing is a "bramble".



but now to the meat of the problem:

rembourrage: padding - stuffing - upholstery. I wonder how that really relates to armor crafting. It still doesn't make sense in the context of the materials in that category. oil, secretion, fang, wing.
I could MAYBE see large fangs as ribbing. Small fangs as buttons or large sutures. Uh... maybe rows of fangs fastened like scale-mail might help.
Wings I could see maybe working like feathers in a pillow. Unless they're thick. Who knows what kind of wings giant insects would have. (impossible ones, since giant insects are impossible.)
Oil... no. We already have sap and resin. Oil serves no purpose in clothing/armor.
Secretion I have no idea.

doublure: lining. I still don't understand how teeth can be used as clothing lining, but I guess the others make sense. Oh, I guess the same way I described the fangs.

fixation (pour armures): fixing - fastening. in-game: armor clip. Now it makes sense. In the same group as animal ligaments. Although I'm not sure how rostrum fits into that. I had to look it up and it says it's "beak-like". The other materials are either string-like (tails, maybe??), or glue-like.

But still, remember things are often shaped in the process of crafting and in RL simply "unscrewing a lid" or "poking a needle at some leather sheet",
or "hitting some piece of wood with a small hammer", won´t accomplish anything Like I said earlier,
many things simply had to be generalized for the sake of gameplay and I think we´re lucky the way it is.

All in all it helps to not be too literal minded with MMORPGs.
But Ryzom made some very nice comparisons to real world "primitive" stuff and "adjusted" and "modernized" it to fit its world.

CU
Acridiel

Yeah. Perhaps I am wasting my time trying to gain anything from the game mechanics, and I should just focus on what the equipment looks like. I mean, what is it going to tell me if I can't find a plant in-game that looks like the leaves that a Zorai vest or Matis dress are made of? That it's just fiber crafted to LOOK like leaves? I still have to do the same thing in real life regardless. No way am I going to use actual giant leaves. :>

For anyone else curious, my intention with this thread was to aid in actually attempting this in real life at some point... as a very-long-term goal.

acridiel wrote: The "stuffing" in fact would be more like "padding" on the in, or outside of armor or boots.

Except that the materials used make absolutely no sense. It's one of the worst offenders of what I have to imagine are game mechanics balancing, deciding that every game object must have two uses, and an armor part is the only thing left so in it goes.

On the outside it referrers to the actual armor encasing the body.
On some designs you can clearly see their origin if you look closely.
Textures similar to Mektoub hide and wood, or carapace are frequent.

I'm going to try and identify everything in all of the armor eventually, or at least the ones I'm interested in crafting in real life.

The "Clip" has been an unfortunate case of confused translations again.
In the Ranged Weapons field, it refers to the "Ammunition-Clip/Magazine", in Armor Crafting it´s used to describe buckles and clasps.

Sorry. I was writing my 2nd post at the same time as you.
Actually, I just covered that, and you were off. (although that wide definition might explain the rostrum and the tail. those are more like claps or pins. I still think fastening would be more applicable to both glues and clasps and cord-like)

Fibers are in my opinion a generalization of all kinds of natural fabrics. Like Cotton, silk and linen.
Of course nobody would really like to play through their whole production process, so many things have been generalized for the sake of easiness of play.
(But I hear "Vanguard" did go that way, up to a point.)

As you say, the production process is needless in-game, but textiles are made from fibers of all kinds, so it's not an inaccurate label.

In bladed weapons I´d go for the composite approach too, but I´d be more inclined to the bones used as blades and/or hilts.
Ligaments would be used to tie the whole thing together and add a certain level of sturdiness too, for dried (turned to leather) ligaments are pretty hard to break.

For simplicity, I can see why they would leave out a glue or fastening. I suspect realistically, the fastening material (in-game: armor clip) would replace the grip material. The grip might be nice for the handle, but it's not as critical as fastening. (although I guess without it, you do probably get raw hands) Unless they're really good at securely lodging shells/claws/beaks into bones/bark.

Bones are one of the toughest materials used for crafting in early civilizations, apart from stone.
Dried bone had the distinct advantage that it was easily shape-able with a stone knife,
tended not to break as easy as a stone edge and held its edge longer.

Thanks for the link. and as we all know, Ryzom has no stone, so bone it is. Makes you wonder what they use to craft the materials with. Do they saw one bone with another bone? :> No wonder the crafting tools degrade as well, eh?

All of this exposition is making me wonder about things that require minerals though. If there's no minerals, what is the sand and dirt made out of? Is it made out of rock-like grains of wood? How did the planet get this size if the tree didn't have anything to build itself with? Does Ryzom transform radiation from the sun into matter somehow?

Tryker Stuff´s "metal-sheen" is probably Mother of Pearl or Shellac, as evidenced in the many shells and corals they use.

Hm. *wikipedia* Shellac is a type of resin. I'm learning a lot.

Zoraï Stuff, does look the most "modern" to me, despite them probating to be the most nature adherent people

Really? It looks pretty primitive to me. It's all weave. Even the heavy armor looks to be entirely weaved.

But I agree to their use of Amber, a shortstory floating somewhere around the old lore provided a proper (read magical) explanation to as how they can actually shape the stone that well.
It´s probably a variant of the process used to to store information in amber cubes. (which has by no means a scientific explanation in RL as far as I know )

I'll have to find that.

Matis stuff does little to fit its ingredients, yes. But with a little bit of artistic leeway we can come up with explanations for that too.

The heavy armor looks like wood. All of their stuff looks like leaves and wood. They are supposed to be "masters of the bark", so they probably have magical powers of shaping wood in odd ways much like the Zorai can with amber.

I myself once wrote a story depicting the actual process of crafting an Amplifier, and I was able to come up with what I hope are fitting places for all materials used. I think I have to translate it one of these days...

Is that on the forums? I wonder how it's aged.

kipestia wrote: Unless the website is inaccurate, all the animal names are EXACTLY the same. I suspect it's inaccurate, because plenty of names don't look very French-compatible.

Uhm, before I read the rest.
Now just what drives you to say the website is inaccurate, when words like "oath" and "perfling" or "cuttler" or "Kipesta" for that matter and such could just as well be made up to fit the World?
This is a fantasy game. Why should animal names and such stuff be translated? *(footnote)
Please explain.
I´m pretty confused right now.


Now on to the other things.
First I´d like to apologize for my own sometimes faulty English.
This may explain why I again made the mistake of confusing the "clips" myself. XD
Your explanation is right, as I was looking at a German chart to kick start my memory I assumed the same mistake was made in the English translation as in the German.
Where the two material explanations once had been, or still are switched around. I´m not much of a crafter InGame, so forgive me my lapse of memory on this.

The term "lining", I found after some research is probably referring to ornamental works. So maybe like you said:
Rows of teeth and fangs and claws on the outside. At least that would make sense.
My best guess is, that some terms for the materials got confused, just like in the German translation, only in other ways maybe?
(We do know that the history of translating this game is a pretty troubled one XD)

With the Zoraï stuff I should have been more specific, sorry. I was referring to their ranged weapons, which look pretty futuristic
Their Armor of course is all rattan, it looks like.
( Maybe bought from IKEA? *chuckle* )

kipestia wrote:All of this exposition is making me wonder about things that require minerals though. If there's no minerals, what is the sand and dirt made out of? Is it made out of rock-like grains of wood? How did the planet get this size if the tree didn't have anything to build itself with? Does Ryzom transform radiation from the sun into matter somehow?

Carefull there.
There aren´t any larger deposits of minerals. Which is a big difference.
Atys isn´t entirely devoid of any minerals. Life wouldn´t be possible without them.
Things like clay, mud and simple earth are there for sure. Plants couldn´t grow without.
The only thing missing are real Mineral deposits.
For example: Enough ore to smelt it and shape into a weapon.
Or any precious metals, like gold, silver, or platinum.
Except for shells, which arecomposed of lime (calcium carbonate) and there seem to be plenty lying around.

kipestia wrote:As you say, the production process is needless in-game, but textiles are made from fibers of all kinds, so it's not an inaccurate label.

I never said it was inaccurate, just a very generalized label.

And please, if you manage to real life craft a suit of armor from real life materials, other then Styrofoam or whatever, SHOW US!!

CU
Acridiel

*Footnote: The best example for the "made up names" that nobody thought of translating are two NPC-Names used on Atys.
The first is: "Fresse", a common Matis Name it seems. But in German a derogative word for "mouth".
The second is "Gai-La-Po" a female Zoraï, walking around Zora.
Well... nothing really wrong with it, except that when spoken aloud it sounds like the German phrase for "Nice ass."

Here's the outfits I'm considering:
Male Zorai in caster gear
Female Zorai in caster gear
One of my regular outfits (Zorai or Tryker top) was a little riské so I'd probably go with this. (I think I could get away with revealing sleeves like those though.) Nothing else covers as well, unless I jump all the way to heavy armor, which would be MADNESS in a set of light armor! (although heavy Zorai medium or lower quality would look nice, I think. Stuff clashes at the higher qualities so... this?)
Bah... I'll probably go with the male one to be safe.

I also really love the female Matis heavy armor. It's my favorite helmet. (Well, besides the bandit boss armor) I think no matter what, I'd like to make that female heavy Matis helmet. That along with my Zorai's face mask would look nice on the wall. I may want to use the female Zorai face mask even if I cosplay as a male Zorai. Who the hell's going to know? :> I bet even most Ryzom players don't know the difference between male and female Zorai masks. We're an obscure race.

acridiel wrote:Uhm, before I read the rest.
Now just what drives you to say the website is inaccurate, when words like "oath" and "perfling" and such may just as well be made up?
Hello?
This is a fantasy game.
Why should all materials and animals have names that stem from real life?
Please explain.
I´m pretty confused right now.

CU
Acridiel

... well, because some of them are English words and some of them are French words. and so far I haven't seen any made-up words in Ryzom that happen to be real Earth words.
Moon, dung, oath are English. Moon and dung were translated from French when they changed languages, but words like oath don't seem to have French versions. Some of the animal names sound pretty alien, but some of them sound more like they have origins from one Earth language or another. (not necessarily English, but... uhg. come on. Don't put me on the spotlight here. I'm not someone who studies language history.)
I mean, "Cuttler" sounds English. Something that cuttles. French words wouldn't end like that. Look. The English "barber" translates to "coiffeur". Since Ryzom is originally a French game, I have to assume that it wouldn't have names that sound like they were invented in English. They would have made up names like Coutelier (Cutler; one 't'. someone who sells knives.) or something. I don't know.

kipestia wrote: ... well, because some of them are English words and some of them are French words. and so far I haven't seen any made-up words in Ryzom that happen to be real Earth words.
Moon, dung, oath are English. Moon and dung were translated from French when they changed languages, but words like oath don't seem to have French versions. Some of the animal names sound pretty alien, but some of them sound more like they have origins from one Earth language or another. (not necessarily English, but... uhg. come on. Don't put me on the spotlight here. I'm not someone who studies language history.)
I mean, "Cuttler" sounds English. Something that cuttles. French words wouldn't end like that. Look. The English "barber" translates to "coiffeur". Since Ryzom is originally a French game, I have to assume that it wouldn't have names that sound like they were invented in English. They would have made up names like Coutelier (Cutler; one 't'. someone who sells knives.) or something. I don't know.

Ugh, we should stop posting at the same time XD
I corrected my own post to spell what I really wanted to ask in the meantime.
I´m sorry the first version you quoted, came across totally wrong.

But still, I don´t see the harm in French people actually inventing names that do look like English. You´ll always have to consider the term spoken aloud in a different language though.
Like my example:
"Fresse" pronounced in French or English would probably sound kind of cute and nice. Well, pronounced in German, it´d be quite rude to name a child like this actually *LOL*
(see footnote in above post)

CU
Acridiel

P.S.: I think the main problem is that throughout the English and the German translation, there have been to many mistakes.
And to actually discuss the finer points of these terms could prove quite moot right now.
Untill the next patch brings a "true" translation, with the help of all communities.

I believe sand can be transformed into glass, with sufficient heat applied....are there any glass structures aside from "possibly" windows, in Ryzom? Probably could make glass beading as well for decorating clothing or making jewellry ie: molded earrings that easily slip into a pierced ear or glass bangles (bracelets) for the arms.

Wood could also be shaped into jewellry, as well as the bones and teeth from animals. Sinew or I guess ligaments could serve as the base for necklaces, ie stringing shaped bones or teeth or glass beads on the dried and stretched "sinews" or ligaments.

Cend

incend wrote:I believe sand can be transformed into glass, with sufficient heat applied....are there any glass structures aside from "possibly" windows, in Ryzom? Probably could make glass beading as well for decorating clothing or making jewellry ie: molded earrings that easily slip into a pierced ear or glass bangles (bracelets) for the arms.

Wood could also be shaped into jewellry, as well as the bones and teeth from animals. Sinew or I guess ligaments could serve as the base for necklaces, ie stringing shaped bones or teeth or glass beads on the dried and stretched "sinews" or ligaments.

Cend

As I understood it, there are no minerals on Ryzom. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, and it's only metals, but if there really was rock around, wouldn't it be a material we could forage?

I suspect "glass" on Ryzom is either amber (hardened sap) or things like insect wings. (I think the Matis might have these in their buildings)

kipestia wrote: rembourrage: padding - stuffing - upholstery. I wonder how that really relates to armor crafting. It still doesn't make sense in the context of the materials in that category. oil, secretion, fang, wing ... Oil serves no purpose in clothing/armor.

My 2 cents: As Acr said things need to be simplified for gaming purposes. I'm going to go with "lining" being something applied to surface of the armor, either inside or out. So going with that I would say that oil is used to soften leathers and to aid in polishing bones, shell and woods. I would also say that different oils would would cause shade variations, like how purple looks pink in Tryker armor at HQ. Secretion... Maybe used to shine also? The phrase "spit shine" keeps coming to mind