one more new player

[dolcino]

Just to say one more new player, and here for long i hope.
Well, not exactly brand new as i have participated to the beta. But then i was to busy with another mmorpg to be able to continue (i play ultima online since 2000). But i've always kept an eye on ryzom and its community and was sad and full of remorse when ryzom finally disappeared. That's why now i want to take my chance to fully support this game and participate to its life.

One thing i would like to say though, even if it may bring me antipathy :
If one of the strenghts of ryzom is its community of now veteran players, i fear that it's also one of its worse ennemy.
Let me explain : veterans are people who have done everything, seen everything, own everything, killed everything etc etc ... and so veterans are people who have privileges, they are rich, powerful.
This is precisely where i see the danger : veterans are a powerful lobby, especially here where new players are a minority. What veterans want is differents than what newplayers need, to decide to stay on a game. If the veterans put the pression on the devs to add more end game content, more content for veterans, this work time won't be used to incitate the new players to stay.
I hope the devs and the vets will all have the intelligence to think "newcomer". Because this game has absolutely no future without new players. Sadly a dev or a veteran can't know what a new player feel, so i hope they will welcome our ideas and suggestions with attention.
Don't get me wrong, i'm not at all asking that this game becomes a world of warcraft clone number x, i'm just telling that i have already often seen in other online games how the elitism of certain categories of players (hardcore players, pvpers, roleplayers, etc etc...) can make newcomers feel unwelcome or useless.
Think newcomer.

[iphdrunk]

Welcome to Atys, the giant rootball!

If the veterans put the pression on the devs to add more end game content, more content for veterans, this work time won't be used to incitate the new players to stay.

This is not black or white, I would guess some kind of (simple) compromise can be found. In my humble opinion, precisely a new player has a lot to discover, plainly speaking, to keep him/her entertained.

I hope the devs and the vets will all have the intelligence to think "newcomer". Because this game has absolutely no future without new players.

New players are needed, agreed on that. In that sense, a significant effort was put to help newcomers with Silan. High level players have been left "in the dark" for years, with "promises of". Without ignoring newplayers, there is e.g. the "Kitin Nest" addition that has been in the works for years too... New owners need also to retain not only a) newcomers like you b) Old players, but also c) Old players that quit or stopped playing that are using this "open" chance to check the health and status of the game. The latter players have way less patience than they used to have... There are lots of c). And some may realize novelty wears off.

Sadly a dev or a veteran can't know what a new player feel, so i hope they will welcome our ideas and suggestions with attention.

Think newcomer.

For the last 4 years, there's been a (small, but constant) influx of players, joining the game as early as sept 2004 or as "late" as just before GF Snafu. After a few months playing, a newcomer can start feeling confident in some game aspects. In all the cases, I would boldly state that "all current veterans" have, at some point, felt newcomers. So yes, a veteran "can".

often seen in other online games

May sound snobbish, but Ryzom is not like other games.

I would like to request the "viceversa". You are nicely requesting veteran players to think "newcomer", stating that without new players, we're doomed. I would like to request "newplayers" to "think veteran" (also let me humbly point out that that most newcomers do not know the past 4 years of Ryzom history, where patience and buying empty promises was a virtue) and, to be honest, I don't think it is a good idea to "ignore the vets" either. Moreover, some "high level content addition" is supposeldy "almost finished" -- although it has been for years -- And with all due respect, Ryzom has tons to offer to newcomers like you without full exclusive dedication from developers.

One think that keeps me more or less here, is the curiosity to see the Kitin Nest or the spires (mind you, the first annoucements of these additions can go back to 2005-6) Keeping the status quo of the game for "us vets" indefinitely won't help either.


Finally, the elitism making newcomers feel unwelcome or useless that you state is very rare.

Yours,

Ani

[piquedram]

welcome dolcino
my main account can't post yet, because of unsubscribed status, but i think you can consider me a veteran (played since october 2004), and i understand your concern. There is more than enough content to be added for both the newbie and veteran player.
Expansions to our encyclopedia system for example benefit everyone
We'll see what the devs make of it, but i agree the most of our time should go to newer players. My favorite way to spend a day is to explain everything to a newbie anyway

Too bad i can't play much the coming month or so, have exams starting today lasting 'till september 5th, and september 6th i'll be on a holiday....

but heck, nice to see new faces xD

[iphdrunk]

We'll see what the devs make of it, but i agree the most of our time should go to newer players. My favorite way to spend a day is to explain everything to a newbie anyway

To me these are two different concepts. One, refers to the attitute of veteran players with regard to newcomers. The second, refers to developers, and game service provider in general.

For the first, to me this is key to keep newcomers interested, and to make them feel appreciated. In simple terms "veteran" players "taking care of" new players -- in many ways, such as explaining gameplay mechanics, introducing the Ryzom lore, general chatting (until Boroshi's stick of doom is hear in universe channels) but also in teaming with them, (even if this means healing out of team or means killing messabs with one hand staves)... without excessive handholding of course . Let me also add that, imho, this is already -- fortunately -- the case. It can be improved, yes, always. Players organizing player made events, etc. For this, I don't see, in day-to-day playing, the attitude the OP refers to.

The second refers to development time. I'm biased here -- vet -- but see my previous post. It goes without saying that work needs to be done with newcomers -- every time I see a newcomer saying that its Silan mission is borked or that he cannot get the reward becase the bag was full, I can't but sigh--- Silan missions should be newcomer-proof!

All in all, welcome tho

Ani

[dolcino]

It goes without saying that work needs to be done with newcomers -- every time I see a newcomer saying that its Silan mission is borked or that he cannot get the reward becase the bag was full, I can't but sigh--- Silan missions should be newcomer-proof!

Thank you ! this is exactly what i wanted to express, in my confused way, with my bad english. That's it. And that's why i say that veterans nor devs can feel what a newcomer feels, because they know, and us not, and that makes all the difference.
The first goal in my opinion is to make people coming, by an appropriate advertising, and then staying. And for that, the start of the game is extremly important. Everything must be thought for people who don't know. that's why it's imho very important to listen to what newcomers experience. what confuse them, what they find not attractive, etc...
for example, my first feelings were :
1) not enough options to customize my character at the creation (haircuts, hair color, skin color, form of the face, etc...)
A vet will certainly tell me that i can further customise my character at higher level. but precisely, i'm new and not supposed to know that, so i have a bad feeling. see what i mean ?
2) explanations are confusing, especially about stanzas, quests... for a vet it's clear, the vet knows. me not. i have to make a big work of documentating myself among various and contradictory sources of datas which are not always digestible for a newcomer. that's the priority : make the game newcomers friendly. It's not betraying the spirit of the game that to adopt a pedagogic approach.
Without newcomers, no game.

May sound snobbish, but Ryzom is not like other games.

I would like to request the "viceversa". You are nicely requesting veteran players to think "newcomer", stating that without new players, we're doomed. I would like to request "newplayers" to "think veteran"

This illustrates precisely what i fear:
Ryzom IS like other games : it needs active customers to stay alive and evoluate. If your vision of Ryzom is a private playground where only a minority of people who deserve it should play, you're doomed to disappear.
About asking the newcomers to thing vet... this is unrealistic. Newcomers are busy to decide if they will stay or not, and that's all. Newcomers are not supposed to know what vets have been through and all this stuff. Newcomers are new.

I have nothing against veterans, i just would like to point the fact that the first priority, if you want to continue to enjoy this game for a long time, is to attract new blood and make them wish to stay.

[iphdrunk]

Ryzom IS like other games : it needs active customers to stay alive and evoluate. If your vision of Ryzom is a private playground where only a minority of people who deserve it should play, you're doomed to disappear.

You took my line out of context (Obviously, as a MMRPG in many aspects it is like in other games it also needs subs to survive). Where I stated "Is not like other games" as per your post "often seen in other online games how the elitism of certain categories of players (hardcore players, pvpers, roleplayers, etc etc...) can make newcomers feel unwelcome or useless." Nowhere I stated that it is or should be a playground for vets, as you seem to imply (?), and nowhere I said that "forget about newbs, do this and that". My post was in the line of "yes, but.. you know, after 3+ years game has been more or less stalling featurewise... I think new additions, maybe not for newcomers can and should be considered, without precluding that work needs to be done -- or rather continued, owners were well aware of this and significant efforts were made".

About asking the newcomers to thing vet... this is unrealistic.

Agreed. It was an hyperbole to state, softly, that not all development should be targetted to newcomers. Who am I to decide though? In short (I elaborate below) yes, the game could use polishing, and documentation, but this is orthogonal to high level content, to some extent.

I have nothing against veterans, i just would like to point the fact that the first priority, if you want to continue to enjoy this game for a long time, is to attract new blood and make them wish to stay.

Gameplay and feature wise, imho, most of newcomers that I saw try the game are more or less ok with it (barred a few annoyances, agreed) and most of them say "how come I never heard of this game" so the work is not only about polishing.

For me, they are two different activities, a) making the game accesible and more newcomer friendly, gathering all available gameplay guides, unify, setup a wiki with all required documentation (Jolt GMs even made a comic teaching the basics, is this lost?), sometimes there are extensive forum posts with info (e.g. french thread about jewels) etc. where community work is valuable, cfr. my previous post and b) targetting further / new development. These are not exclusive (polishing may require development).

Not disagreeing with you "generally" but stating "don't leave vets out of the game by not cattering to them". In other words, what imho is required to attract new blood and make them stay is not only targetting all development for necomers. You can have 2 people working on a wiki with documentation, yet a c++ coder testing the kitin nest.

I would like to finish with a note (general, not aimed to you) that to me is important. Every now and then we see or author (myself included) a statement "this game should do this, or it will tank" or "why don't they xxx, what are they thinking!!". It's easy to say do this/do that, but I'm sure most of the ideas are known. I'm fully aware that devs have a clue about the need for newplayers -.- and they do what they can with the resources they have (except GF, maybe )


Ani

[sidusar]

I've certainly experienced how elitism can ruin an online community, so I can see where your concern comes from. But let me attempt to reassure you; while we certainly feel our little Ryzom community is superior to any other MMO community, a new player is considered part of that community from the moment they log in to Ryzom. We are only elitist against people who don't want to play Ryzom in the first place.

A lot of us vets have been constantly nagging the developpers to "fix Silan already!" for years now, so we definitely don't only think of our own content.

I do believe however, that it would be just as big a mistake to focus only on content for new players. There is no magical point of no return when a newcomer transforms into a vet, that he suddenly doesn't need incentive to stay anymore. Players need incentive to stay at every stage of the game, otherwise we might get a lot of newcomers but none of them would stay for long.

Also, welcome to Ryzom. I hope you'll find it enjoyable enough to become a vet yourself.

[komissar]

you just have to come to theML and join ANY guild and your question will be answered momentarily, mate

You are absolutely right about Ryzom being similar with all the other MMOS outthere in howit needs a constant influx to survive but...

We vets knowone thing: Ryzom changes people, changes the way you think and act and the change comes quite fast. So with the influx of new players we will simply have the growth of our unique nparallelled "elitist" community

Don't answer this right now, mate just be a bit patient and you will feel it all.

Cheers.

[acridiel]

I have to agree with my co-veterans

No offense intended
We Ryzombies are a special kind of Players in my eyes. And most who do join us and "survive" the first few difficulties and stay for some time, tend to rather quickly find their own niche in the world. Their own little place where they can feel snug and comfy within the Community.
Newcomers very fast become a real part of the community and normally tend to like it.
And by "part of the comunity" I don´t just mean "other players beside you", I mean friends.

Just yesterday I encountered three new players around Yrkanis and had a lot of fun with two of them for about two hours before we all were too tired to go on. The third I simply recognized as a Newbe and greeted politely. Which seemed to quite surprise him. But we had a friendly chat afterwards and I´m sure others did the same today and yesterday. All how behave friendly are welcomed with open arms and friendly words. And even those who don´t are normally taken on in a friendly and mature manner.

To say a Game should think only about its newcomers is to loose sight of a significant portion of the game itself. Especially in the case of a game that just re-started. An brad new game can surely think exclusively about Newcomers for everyone belongs to that category
But a game twice reviewed and still in possession of such a large number of "veterans" has to think about them too.
It is a unique position Ryzom is in, no other game before has ever been where we are now and thus no formula known will fix its problems. Only new inventions will, new paths trod.
So logically the time of the devs would have to be divided between both Newbs and Oldies. It would surely be to the benefit of both.

And we are a uniquely patient bunch here, so even if the Newbes get their cookies first, only few of us will complain

CU
Acridiel

[philix]

I'm newish here as well, I joined quite a while ago and just saw the other day that Ryzom is making a comeback!