Ryzom

I've seen some interesting posts the past week or so from various neutral guilds all signing up for cats and complaining that they are hard to get or that they've barely received any since the OPs came out. There were even some who were outraged that they might actually have to provide some sort of payment for the cats. So it brought to mind a question. Are these crystals something that every homin has a right to or are they a reward to those who fought and gained an OP?

While I'd like to say that every homin has a right to them, I don't believe that to be the case. If I bust my butt fighting for an OP and then fighting off various attacks, why should I then be sharing my well earned reward with those who have steadfastly refused to help me? If you're neutral, thats fine. If you're anti-pvp, thats fine. But don't then expect those who are to turn and spoon feed you cats. If a guild does decide to share them, they are doing so because they choose to (and at the expense of not getting as many for their guildmates). It should not be something that is expected of any guild that owns an OP. Its nice, its generous, but it should not be expected of them.

At the time that Infinity left game, we were in control of the two 250 OPs in Void. Every member was given 1-2 stacks of crystals a day and that was enough to clean the GH out of cats. Those members could do what they pleased with their crystals (hunt, dig, trade em, give em away, etc) and many of us traded/gave em away.
Now, I return to game. I have no OPs, I have only the cats I left in my apt, and yet, I've not used a single one, nor have I gone around begging and pleading to guilds for them. I don't need them. It'd be nice to have them, but my XP is not dependent of me getting my 'fix'. I earned many of my master titles without them and I will continue to do so in the future (if anyone actually still hunted... 5 times in 3 days that no one was in the void.....)

So, in my mind, people have no right to complain that they have not received crystals when they have done nothing to earn them. If you want them, trade for them. Buy them, craft for them, trade various ratios of cats for them. They are a luxury and luxuries often come with a price.

Ps. I'm sure many of the kara will be all over me for this simply because I'm kami... Flame away, I'm used to it and don't really care. but I'm sure DT agrees with me

Because it creates power/accomplishment disparity.
Because it's inextricably linked with PvP creating further inequality and a relative content lack for non PvPers.
Because it's the nice thing to do to share?
Because it's throwing the powerbalance of the factions further off-whack which does have a knock-on effect to the people who choose not to partake in that.

Cats aren't the only things produced either remember.

totnkopf wrote:Ps. I'm sure many of the kara will be all over me for this simply because I'm kami... Flame away, I'm used to it and don't really care. but I'm sure DT agrees with me

If I were to disagree with you, I assure you, it would be on my perception of the merits of your argument and not your status as a Kamist.

But, in general, I agree with you. This isn't the first time this has come up, so I'll play devil's advocate and simply mention the related problem: it's been months since we got Outposts and there is no still way for anti-pvp'ers to earn XP Cats directly. They can be part of a pvp'ing guild and get them that way, but if an entire guild (or majority of it) is anti-pvp, they are left by Nevrax out in the cold on this issue.

I sometimes wonder if, in the long term, maybe it would have been better to hold outposts back until some sort of non-pvp new content was also available so everyone could feel they had a place in the game.

oldmess wrote:But, in general, I agree with you. This isn't the first time this has come up, so I'll play devil's advocate and simply mention the related problem: it's been months since we got Outposts and there is no still way for anti-pvp'ers to earn XP Cats directly. They can be part of a pvp'ing guild and get them that way, but if an entire guild (or majority of it) is anti-pvp, they are left by Nevrax out in the cold on this issue.

I agree that the non-pvpers need a way to earn them and R2 will apparently bring that. However, as stated above, they are a luxury, not something that is required to level. If you choose not to defend or take part in the OPs, then you choose to not be involved in the ultimate reward of the OPs. You can't have it both ways. Its a matter of sacrifice. Those guilds that get involved in the OP battles make themselves targets to the opposing faction. They have to be ready to defend their OP and they have to make sure that they keep good allies. That is their sacrifice for owning the OP. A guild that chooses to take no part in the OP battles should also be prepared to make a sacrifice, be it in mats or dappers to buy the cats off those who own the OPs. Free is nice (as is sharing, judy) but not required of anyone. If my neighbor buys a brand new BMW, I don't then expect him to get me one too.

As for this being pvp only content, yes, it is. But this game was always going to have pvp involved (when you read that manual that came with the game, it did mention faction wars and OPs and pvp...) and thus would have things that were limited only to the pvp aspects of the game. Its not balanced content wise? sure. But who said it should be? If there are MMO rules for that, then please, point me in the right direction for them. R2 is almost here (should have already been here, but... *shrugs*) so that will provide 'unlimited content' for those not wanting PvP content (is this where I say its unbalanced since you guys get unlimited content while mine is limited?). From the start, Nevrax had made it clear that this game would be focused on the factional conflict, so why should it then be a surprise that they reward those who are willing to take part in that?

totnkopf wrote:If I bust my butt fighting for an OP and then fighting off various attacks, why should I then be sharing my well earned reward with those who have steadfastly refused to help me?

You do have a valid point here. However, that approach is the first step down the road to making PvP a means to an end, rather than an end in itself. As long as PvP (OP battles in this case) are a necessity to earn XP cats, a case can be made that PvP is no longer truly consensual. Certainly, I can elect not to participate in OP battles, i.e. I can say that I do not consent to engage in PvP. But by making that decision about PvP, I have denied myself access to cats.

totnkopf wrote:If you want them, trade for them. Buy them, craft for them, trade various ratios of cats for them.

Sounds great in theory. However in practice, no guild that has access to OP cats will have the slightest interest in trading PM goods for them, since they can almost certainly make them themselves. Indeed, they would regard the items that a potential neutral trader would offer as being second rate, since they implicitly have access to goods made with OP materials, which will be superior to anything that can be made without.

Admittedly, this final argument really only holds water for those with Q250 OP's, but you do see the point.

That aside, I still want to know exactly what I can offer as a neutral independant trader that is worth their while to trade for xp cats, considering that they can certainly make anything that is equal to what I might produce.

This is, BTW, a pure thought experiment, since as a member of the bunnies, I do have accss to XP cats. However, I always consider it wise to fully investigate the other guy's situation.

Bottom line, I'm not convinced that trading anything other than cats for cats is a meaningful trade.

-- Edit - Typos --

totnkopf wrote:As for this being pvp only content, yes, it is. But this game was always going to have pvp involved (when you read that manual that came with the game, it did mention faction wars and OPs and pvp...) and thus would have things that were limited only to the pvp aspects of the game. Its not balanced content wise? sure. But who said it should be? If there are MMO rules for that, then please, point me in the right direction for them. R2 is almost here (should have already been here, but... *shrugs*) so that will provide 'unlimited content' for those not wanting PvP content (is this where I say its unbalanced since you guys get unlimited content while mine is limited?). From the start, Nevrax had made it clear that this game would be focused on the factional conflict, so why should it then be a surprise that they reward those who are willing to take part in that?

On the flip side, why should PvP rewards be so influential over the other parts of the game?

The spires description has been sounding a little more acceptable as time goes on since it sounds like it will only affect and be fought over by the people who buy into the PvP.

The outpost content however has been divisive in the extreme, not just in the IC/dramatic tension sense, but in the OOC community too.

tannack wrote:Bottom line, I'm not convinced that trading anything other than cats for cats is a meaningful trade

I beg to differ. Dappers carry little value in this game and, as such, tend not to be the favored means of payment. Mats however, carry a lot of weight and are always needed. When I traded my cats away back in the day, I often did it for grind mats. But boss mats, PR sups, etc will all carry different weights and be worth different amounts of cats.

grimjim wrote:On the flip side, why should PvP rewards be so influential over the other parts of the game?

Because in the eyes of many MMO produces, PvE is for non-pvpers. While you may not see it that way, many players and game producers do. "if they don't want to fight another player, then they shall just have to fight more mobs". Is this content limited to you? no. But its hard to come up with content that is limited to non-pvpers (specially in a game like this where all the skill trees are open. There is an event going on in SWG where crafters play a role, but since its class based, that role can only be filled by a crafter, not a fighter who has chosen to craft). While other OPs that could be won in some other way than fighting would be nice, I doubt that we will see that in game (or at least not a version without some sort of combat. Even if its a dig battle, I bet you there would be a pvp zone around the OP. Other wise its the guild with the most CPers wins).

totnkopf wrote:Even if its a dig battle, I bet you there would be a pvp zone around the OP. Other wise its the guild with the most CPers wins).

As opposed to 'the strongest fighters' or 'the most people'?

Not much difference there, save one doesnt' involve mass slaughter and a different type of skill/dedication level.

You can make PvP rewards only applicable to PvP to keep the two somewhat segregated.

Sometimes I think we'd have been better off with two stylistic servers rather than language based servers.

Bring on Ring "Outlands" that produce an endless stream of approx 18 stacks a day, plus a few OP mats for the maintainer...

Then R2 will balance out OPs.

As is, OPs unbalance the game in favour of the PvPer with the most allies.

Or just dump the cats... remove em. Nerf their production speeds as a compromise.

There is practically no maintainance involved in OPs beyond the OP battles every so often. And as we have all seen, those are pretty much forgone conclusions these days. Where as players really have to put in a lot of time to getting grind mats, boss mats etc.