Ryzom

I have been mulling this over for some time.

There are two ways, really, of motivating someone: threat of punishment and promise of reward.

I think most of us can agree that a combination of the two is the most effective. For example, you go to work and do your job every day both to get a paycheck, and out of the fear that you will be fired if you don't.

When we fail to receive either the reward or punishment, we stop acting in the desired way. If I slack off at work and I don't get fired, I will continue to slack off. If I work hard and don't get paid, I will stop working.

Where am I going with this?

Right now in MMOG's, the players only have a carrot. The devs make a game, and we pay them to play it. If they consistently under perform, by, say putting actual intriguing content on hold in favor of working on trivial and destructive other things, all we can do is cancel our account. That is just withholding the carrot.

It isn't like we can send electric shocks directly to their brains through these forums when they do something dumb. (Although, if we could, could we also get a webcam?)

And the worst part...it is a carrot that we do not even want to take away. We *want* to keep playing. We obviously think the monthly fee is worth being able to play the game. The decision to leave is a heavy one, and often involves abandoning friends and organizations that we have worked hard on.

The game developers all know this. Their delays and mistakes continue because we do not hold them to higher standards. Not only can we not punish them in any meaningful way, but we keep rewarding them for their errors.

And if you get rewarded for something, especially when it is easy to do, you will most certainly keep doing it.

If one person gets fed up and cancels an account, what is it to the company?
As long as the replacement rate is equal to or slightly above attrition, they are still being rewarded.

The only solution, if there is ever going to be one, has to come from the players. The game companies create hype in order to get us emotionally invested in a game, that way we will buy it whether it sucks or not. MMO companies do the same thing, but they have the have the advantage of us being tied to our in game friends.

I hate to say this; but all of you that have pre-ordered games, even this one, are part of the problem. You are actually rewarding the team before they finish the job.

I think we have learned by now that the answer is not to jump from game to game; finding the exact same issues dressed in different art work in each place. We need a way to make the game we are playing better, not shuffle off in hope that the next group of game developers will do something different. We have been trying that method for years.

In order to make the situation any better, we need to be willing to sacrifice those emotional investments. We have to be ready to loose the characters we have worked long at developing. We need to be willing to stop playing with the friends we have made in game for a while. Until a lot of us can do this, all at once, I don’t think we will really see improvements in the online gaming scene. Until most, or at least many, of the players are ready to say “I have canceled my account, and I will not reactivate it until <insert bug description here> is fixed.” We simply won’t be able to take away carrots away fast enough.

I don’t think that enough of us are ready to do that, yet.

We all know potatos ae where its at though they have much more promis and can be made into many more things.

*throws his scabby carrot (thats trying to be a potato) away and plays with a real potato that has much more promis*

I know what you're talking about Mr Shad, and I completely agree, but to make a real point about that, yes, you would have to leave.

Considering that playing Ryzom costs round about the same as a pint of beer a week i think that we all get a really good deal. I know that you might not agree with what Nevrax do on a patch-per-patch basis but I firmly believe that their real goal is to make Saga of Ryzom a better gaming experience for it's dedicated players (and sponsors!).

Also, if you continue to get disenchanted with the game; keep the suggestions for improvements heading their way to the Game Teams. You're a paying customer; they will listen to you.

In fact..Jool buy Mr Shad bottle of fire-wine every week in game to offset RL beer!

You know, the main problem is not even so much the games that are made, but the people that are playing.

Consider a group of 100 people.
In the Netherlands we have a saying that goes: "The loudmouths have half the world." Realize that of these 100 people only 15 are loudmouths. So 85 people will have to share half, while 15 have the other half. Now the loudmouths learned that shouting will get you a pretty large chunk of world, compared to the other notsolouds. So if world will have to be divided, they will shout to get their large chunk.

Why are the loud ones given what they want? Because:
1: The notsolouds dont wish to cause a hassle.
2: The notsolouds are the ones who distribute (being the majority they are entitled to do so), and they think it is okee to have the same share as the majority.
3: They are used to it, people in general really like patterns (look at any patch that causes a change, in every man there is a Rainman).

But why are the loudmouths loud? Because they are *right*! We Are Right! Being loud needs a person to be blind for other options, for another option might prove the loudmouth wrong, and a loudmouth that is accepting he is wrong becomes a notsoloud fast.

And the point of this look upon people speaking up their mind? Anyone trying to get the opinion of any group will need to gather all perspectives and understand that the opinions spoken up loudest are often the opinions thought about least. Even this small post is thought about not too much, not asked my peers to review it, not versioned but simply posted 0.1.

Finding out what opinions / bugs / change requests have most impact is by thinking up the arguments that make the o/b/cr important enough to speak up about it. If the motivation for speaking up is understood, then analyse the risks and results included in actually implementing the o/b/cr.

A nice little matrix can be drawn with motivation for posting set up versus impact on playerbase.

MFP:
1 Personal interest (the borderlinerposts "HEY LOOK AT ME!")
2 Personal and Peer interest (the We Are Right group, "Our group hunts will not give 3K")
3 Common group interest (Supporting current playerbase)
4 General game longetivity interest (introducing PvP might draw a wider playerbase, thus keeping up the servers for another year)

Impact on gameplay
1 No impact or Workaround (the small icons in the mapwindow where your packers are)
2 Impacting a small part of the playerbase (Deleting 2 guilds, giving Zorai new hairstyles (example))
3 Impacting a large part of the playerbase (The recent heal changes)
4 Impacting all players (the invasions that made the servers lock up and crash so bad they needed a hard reboot, safety zone around a teleporter reduced to near nothing (yes, this impact is bigger then you think)).

Now if a bug is received, try to give it a number in both lists without thinking in terms of good or bad. Now multiply these two and the higher the outcome, the more care should be taken with:
- Deciding wether or not the o/b/cr will be picked up by the development team.
- Testing functional and systemwise inhouse.
- Testing functional and operational with key users.
- posting the changes (care in wording), even tho players will point out the hidden tough parts in about 45 minutes.

There, all good advise, the rest I will have to think about...

This is a compilation of testing knowledge from the Risk and Requirement based testing method, the TMap method and a modification of the MuSCow model.

And yes, this I do for a living, I like to call it Quality Insurance by working towards Quality Improvement. Interesting for those who are in the same line of work, completely bullocks for those who dont. Like collecting stamps... (Stamps, why would people collect STAMPS???)

Thanks for reading this far, I now must think up something else to do while my boss is talking to the customer to sell my brain...

mrshad wrote:
I hate to say this; but all of you that have pre-ordered games, even this one, are part of the problem. You are actually rewarding the team before they finish the job.

I understand where you are coming from with your post but disagreed with the above statement immediately and after I started this reply I have since come to the conclusion that I disagree with just about all of it .

The high majority of those that pre-ordered were in fact beta testers and in my case I got a huge buzz from buying and playing a game I helped develop, in fact I still do. (this was originally the main point of my post but I'm at work and this is much more fun......)

I do think you missed a vital part in your post regarding motivation as well. In order to help someone/something fully achieve you have to provide support. A child who stuggles with math will not develop fully if they are just rewarded or punished, they will respond a lot faster and achieve more if supported. This inspires motivation. Continued support by way of subscribing players is essential to the future of the game. Long term players will always leave, there is only so much extra content you can add to keep them here. Once their personal goals are met short of developing a whole new game it is inevitable that they will move on. R2 sounds like it is going a long towards this though, which in itself is a unique concept.

The main jist of your post is that players should stop subscribing in order to punish the developers. If this happened on a large scale this game and any other game would die completely. So lets keep chasing the carrot and lending support by way of continued subscriptions, feedback, ideas etc.

Remember :-
"you can please some of the people, some of the time, but you can't please all of the people, all of the time."
----------------------------------------------------
Aesops Fable - "The Miller, the Son, and the Donkey."
The story is about a miller and his son who were driving their donkey to market. They had not gone far when some girls saw them and broke out laughing. "Look!" they cried. "Look at those fools! How silly they are to be [url=javascript:void(0)][/url]trudging along on foot when the donkey might be carrying one of them on his back."

This seemed to make sense, so the father lifted his son onto the donkey and walked along contentedly[url=javascript:void(0)][/url] by his side. They trod[url=javascript:void(0)][/url] on for a while until they met an old man who spoke to the son scornfully[url=javascript:void(0)][/url]. "You should be ashamed of yourself, you lazy rascal. What do you mean by riding when your poor old father has to walk? It shows that no one respects age anymore. The least you can do is get down and let your father rest his old bones." Red faced with shame, the son got down and made his father get onto the donkeys back.

They had gone only a little further when they met a group of young fellows who mocked[url=javascript:void(0)][/url] them. "What a cruel old man!" jeered[url=javascript:void(0)][/url] one of the fellows. "There he sits, selfish and comfortable, while the poor boy has to stumble along the dusty road to keep up with him."

So the father lifted his son up, and the two of them rode along. However, before they reached the market, a townsman stopped them. "Have you no feeling for dumb creatures?" he shouted. "The way you load that little animal is a crime. You two men are better able to carry the poor little beast than he you!"

Wanting to do the right thing, the miller and his son got off the donkey, tied his legs together, [url=javascript:void(0)][/url]slung him on a pole, and carried him on their shoulders. When people saw this [url=javascript:void(0)][/url]spectacle, they laughed so loudly that the donkey was frightened. The animal kicked through the cords that bound him, fell off the pole into the river and drowned.

The moral of this story is, "He who tries to please everybody pleases nobody."

"A child who stuggles with math will not develop fully if they are just rewarded or punished, they will respond a lot faster and achieve more if supported."

If the natural enviroment of the child is punishment, the absence of it is a reward. Aka if the child is punished for each mistake, no matter how small, when the child acomplish something without being punished, that's a reward. Support? Lol. He / she have to find support and strenght inside, not to cry for help all the time.

If you hire someone to clean your house and that someone asks you to help him / her to do the job, next time you hire other person. You are paying that guy to clean the carpets, he's not going to charge you less because you helped him.

You are way too civilised for that, guys. You believe that if you show respect and consideration to a person, that person is going to show you the same. That's far, far away from the truth. If you are nice to a person, especially in business, that person will try for sure to cheat you, because takes your considerate atittude as a sign of weakness.

And the example is not that far. Is in front of your eyes. Nevrax. You - and me - was pacient for a very long time. I've been ranting in forums in the past, then I STFU, just waiting to see what happens. You asked me to be polite, nice and pacient, and I've done my best to be that way. Now I'd like to see all in line, near me, ready to get your next kick in the b... arse.

hans1976 wrote:You know, the main problem is... the Netherlands... have ... loudmouths... that... people will have to share... their large chunk... with.
Why? Because... The notsolouds dont wish to cause a hassle... to.. Rainman.

But... loudmouths... loud? We Are Right! Being loud... the loudmouth... a loudmouth.. becomes a notsoloud fast.

Point... people... up... to get the... bugs... who make...important... speaking... risks... and include.. A nice little matrix.


There, all good advise, the rest I will have to think about...

This is a compilation of... people who collect STAMPS.

My boss is selling my brain...

Frydes, awesome post! I think you have a fascinating career.
I couldn't resist taking certain words out, just fer fun.

vutescu wrote:You are way too civilised for that, guys. You believe that if you show respect and consideration to a person, that person is going to show you the same. That's far, far away from the truth. If you are nice to a person, especially in business, that person will try for sure to cheat you, because takes your considerate atittude as a sign of weakness.

That is such a huge and wide ranging argument that it would get completely off topic. Suffice to say I don't agree with you in the slightest and think it is better to aspire to be better people than to indulge selfish animal behaviour.

Positive reinforcement and reward is just as (if not more) effective than negative reinforcement just as cooperation as a group is proven to be more successful than than selfish action.

Could be off topic but RL facts are proving my words.
The most sucessfull companies are the ones who treat employes as slaves. Also the biggest profit comes from selling bad products at high prices not from a civilised and decent trade.
Sorry, I don't like it either, but is the truth. You are not making money with kindness but with the whip. Kindness is something you can afford when you sleep on a couple of millions.
I think is a book called "Modern Management Golden Rules" or something like that. It explains all this way better than me.

Is nice to have aspirations, Jyudas. Is noble and very inspiring. But dreaming with wide open eyes at a better world is not going to change the actual world. Nor the people.

I believe my sentiment has been stated more eloquently above, but just to be clear, I will post anyway.

How will this game become better if Nevrax does not have the financial support of Ryzom subscribers to pay their employees to make the game better? No one's going to do it for free, and "firing" Nevrax benefits no one.

In RL, I am a graduate student, and I don't have a lot of cash to throw around. I still think it's worth my $15/month, even if I don't log on very often, to see what improvements this company can come up with.

I'm not very experienced with mmorpgs in general, but I've seen enough to know that this game has a lot of potential, and the people making it are dedicated to giving us a unique and enjoyable gaming experience. I can identify with planning a schedule of updates that seems reasonable, but later turns out not to be quite realistic. Even with the delays, I think that it's worth the wait and that my money is well spent.