Ryzom

"A MMORPG is Not a Game, it's a service".

Ok, so you might have heard this phrase being thrown around. Do you agree with it? Do you understand it?

I am not sure if I do, but here's my take.

People, when rating mmorpg or criticing a mmorpg, they treat it as a single product, a game, a CARDBOARD BOX if you will. HA HA.

This is inherently and FUNDAMENTALLY False.

You pay for an mmorpg service just as you pay for a monthly-fee membership for a hobby club. It is not a case of, here's what you see, here's you get, a medal, some books, a uniform, and a red neckerchief. What you're paying for is actually what you "do" in the club, not the red neckerchief itself.

You cannot treat a mmorpg the same as standalone game. You have to judge it base on its OVERALL lifespan, because it is constantly being changed (although in Nevrax case, being fixed ). You have to judge it base on its customer service, its platform, its foundation, and how much does it care about the customers, and its FUTURE plans.

You pay a monthly fee not just for "what is there now", you pay for the support of the people to keep it going, AND you also pay for the creators to CREATE more, or fix things, as they come.

Another thing that kills me, MMORPG reviews. Most reviews by nature are done when a game is released, or very close after. And ALL mmorpgs, just like any starting new services, takes time to be polished and "get in the groove", and most mmorpgs will be LACKING, UNBALANCED, and UNSTABLED during launch. There's just too many moving parts.

For reviewers to base their "score" on the initial launch of a game and then never looked bad, is the same as rating a standalone game first level and never looked back. i.e. like playing the first level of Knight of the Old Republic and then quit and give it a review.

Fyrx's Theorem: MMORPG reviews are imcomplete and WILL be wrong over time

The final thing I like to say is, as with any service, if there're no changes, it might gets old, and boring, for you.

When this happens, there're 2 things you can expect. Either the service is changed to make it more to your liking, or you move on.

If there's nothing done by the company who host the service BECAUSE they're incompetent/lazy/don't care, then you're in trouble, and you should forget about packing or pitching the tent and just bolt. (Nevrax is none of the above) (and if you want to agrue incompentent, let you try to develop your own mmorpg first before casting the stone).

If it's because there're actual difficulties in getting a service changed, you either be patience and wait, or move on. There's nothing wrong with moving on, and there's nothing wrong with moving on and coming back if you see that there were changes to your liking.

And as Forrest would say, that's all I gotta say about that.

could have said it better if I tried...and I have

Fyrxie-poo ( ) I agree with you, and it's the only reason I'm still here, and still complaining, heh.

It has been noted before that this is Neverax's first attempt, but, just as Edison did not need to re-discover fire before setting his stable of scientists on the problem of the light-bulb, many of us are trying to help Neverax with our experience both with MMOs and table-top RPGs. Some have played since all Dwarves were fighters, and the only people who had heard of Tiamat were folklorists well versed in ancient Mesoptemian culture. That's around 30 years apiece for some, a valuable resource, that we are attempting to share, not just for free, but we are willing to pay a subscription cost while we do it.

Some are (I hope) trying to help by saying "The enviornments are awsome!","I like this", "I like that", or, at least, "Nice try!".

Other people are attempting to help by saying "You need to fix the mob/player power balancing", "The skill/power _____ still doesn't work", or "Please don't unleash the inherent nastiness of PvP gaming, and become just another cookie cutter MMORPG". This is often mistaken for whining, but, as I have stated before, if they did not truly care about the game, why bother and invest the time writing such detailed posts?

The only thing in your post I disagree with (and what I find very worrisome) is the subject of reviews. Many have become like a frog in slowly heated water, because of our immersion for so long within this game, we fail to notice huge blatant flaws which appear, so used to the many smaller flaws we have become. Reviewers are often immune to that, as, yes, they investigate the game as it is first released (or just prior), but if they do so again, it is after time has past and they have experienced other games. They lack the immersion of a dedicated player. This is a flaw, as they miss some of the complexities, but it is a virtue, as they retain an objectivity nearly impossible for us to acheive. What I find worrisome about the reviews is this: When first reviewed, Ryzom received high praise and glowing reviews, at least from most. Now, the same reviewers (those that have taken a second look, after about a year) are giving negative ratings. This is not due to a hateful disposition, nor being paid off by the competition, it is simply down to an objectivity that we lack.

OOC:

Strange, but I have to agree with both of you.
If only all people here were that insightfull and able to see the "whole picture". *sigh*.
Anyways. I might be biased or totally non-objective, I still love the Game.
And in my cas it´s BECAUSE of its inherent potential to become great.

As i´ve said before and will always say:

Ryzom is a raw diamond. Its first facettes have just been cut.
Right now minor flaws are smothered out.
And pretty soon the Jeweler will move in for the true cut and create the Masterpice that slumbers within that right now, rough and cold stone.

Acridiel

P.S.: And for a MMORPG being a Service, most people seem to forget or even don´t recognize in the first place, that the CSRs are almost all volonteers.
They do it to HELP, for FREE!!
Respect to these fine people.

thebax wrote: The only thing in your post I disagree with (and what I find very worrisome) is the subject of reviews. Many have become like a frog in slowly heated water, because of our immersion for so long within this game, we fail to notice huge blatant flaws which appear, so used to the many smaller flaws we have become. Reviewers are often immune to that, as, yes, they investigate the game as it is first released (or just prior), but if they do so again, it is after time has past and they have experienced other games. They lack the immersion of a dedicated player. This is a flaw, as they miss some of the complexities, but it is a virtue, as they retain an objectivity nearly impossible for us to acheive. What I find worrisome about the reviews is this: When first reviewed, Ryzom received high praise and glowing reviews, at least from most. Now, the same reviewers (those that have taken a second look, after about a year) are giving negative ratings. This is not due to a hateful disposition, nor being paid off by the competition, it is simply down to an objectivity that we lack.

OOC:

Hmmm, I have not actually seen a re-review of any mmoprgs after their initial one. Most reviewers I see are one time and no changing it, e.g. magazine, popular gaming sites, tv-shows.

Mayhaps you're talking about player reviews?

But agreed on long term players not being objectives and there's something to be said about "fresh eyes". But of course, you also see new players fall in love with the games because of some aspects or other that we take for granted now (i.e. the beautiful artworks).

I truly enjoy playing in the lands of Atys and you'll rarely, if ever, see me complain about a lack of content or anything else for that matter.

That said, I completely disagree with this entire philosophy. Yes, we pay for a subscription based MMORPG, but are we not entitled to that which was promised from the beginning? I do realize that France has a different sort of judicial system, but if an American company were to fail to produce advertised promised content and features, there most likely would have been a class action lawsuit by this time. Perhaps this is right and perhaps it is petty, but the fact remains that it is almost undoubtedly accurate.

As an example, I will relate a personal anecdote that I believe applies perfectly:

<ANECDOTE>In 1998, I enrolled in a sky diving club, while stationed as a paratrooper at Ft. Benning, GA. This club promised a certain number of jumps over a certain period of time. I paid the fee for a 3-month membership and completed the 1-week training period so that I could continue jumping. Over the course of the next few months, the company that provided parachutes, pilots, and aircraft had some financial problems and cut their staff by over half. At that time, they reduced their parachute rigging staff to a total of two people. Most of the time, there were not enough parachutes available for everybody who had a membership. Many of us enrolled in the club were Army parachute riggers and we volunteered to pack our own main parachutes, but only an FAA certified rigger can pack a reserve parachute, so there were often delays. This was not the original agreement and sadly, the club disbanded over a short period of time.</ANECDOTE>

To avoid argument I would like to stress the fact that I thoroughly enjoy playing Saga of Ryzom and I prove that by continuing my monthly subscription. I, like may others, truly enjoy helping to improve the experience by volunteering my time by creating events, running treks and hunts, and role-playing, on a regular basis. On the other hand, I have been repeatedly disappointed that many of the features promised from the beginning are either buggy or completely missing.

Nevrax has come very close to greatness with the amazing world we play in every day, but while that does place the company points ahead in my book, it should and does not take away from the fact that the company needs to take responsibility and do everything possible to provide what was promised as stated in the original product description. My personal disappointment stems mostly from the fact that those of us in North America no longer have a server dedicated for our use. I do understand that this problem arose due to legal issues, and yet this was a large part of the reason I decided to play. I think any of you who played on Windermeer will agree that things have taken a turn for the worse since the server merge. Most of us expected to see a larger number of regular players; in actuality, the population seems to be much smaller.

To sum up, perhaps we do all pay for a monthly subscription, but we also paid for a retail piece of software that fails to do everything that was promised out of the box. The sense of community that we saw on Windermeer has been greatly reduced on Aripostle. And finally, many of us really only stick around because we are lucky to be members of a decent guild or because we have made a few friends from which we are not inclined to part ways.

Nevrax, please pick up the pace and give people a reason to stick around! We love this game, but patience is wearing very thin.

I don't think an MMORPG is a service. I don't think it's a game either. I think it is something different, and I think that as we progress into the age of information technology and abstractions that have real practical relevance the old "goods or services" model will fall apart.

The interactive digital environment is just that. I think it is something new, part good, part service, part something completely different. And I like it. But of course, everyone will either try to pin it into one category or the other, and I think that is dangerous either way.

Maybe rather than a good or a service, a MMORPG could be called an "evolution." A review makes sense for a service as much as for a game - there is a general assumption with a service of consistency. If I go to an expensive massage parlor and get a good massage, I'll recommend the place to my friends as a good parlor. I am assuming that my massage was typical of a massage given at that parlor, and I don't have to experience every masseuse to know that. The service also doesn't change over time, so if I go back five years from now, I can expect a similar massage.

A MMORPG is a whole different thing. Which "masseuse" you end up with makes all the difference, and the "service" itself changes constantly. This lack of consistency, this change over time, is something new. Rather than finding the best way to provide a service, and then implementing and refining that method, creating a MMORPG is a creative work. It's more like making a painting than giving a massage. Is art a service? Or is does art qualify under goods? Who can say?

madnak wrote: Is art a service? Or is does art qualify under goods? Who can say?

Neither. It falls under "compulsion"

OOC:

thebax wrote:Neither. It falls under "compulsion"

OOC:

Oh I thought it was called an addiction

mtsmith wrote:That said, I completely disagree with this entire philosophy. Yes, we pay for a subscription based MMORPG, but are we not entitled to that which was promised from the beginning? I do realize that France has a different sort of judicial system, but if an American company were to fail to produce advertised promised content and features, there most likely would have been a class action lawsuit by this time. Perhaps this is right and perhaps it is petty, but the fact remains that it is almost undoubtedly accurate.

I'm not sure you should be too proud of living in a country where computer manufacturers are forced to have a phrase in their manual that the device marked CD ROM player in not, and I repeat not, a cup holder and should therefor not be used as such because it would void the warrantee just because they could be sued by someone actually stupid enough to use it a such (not sure this is the case but it might be give the habit of some people in the US to sue everyone and their mother...)

p.s. there are plenty of US game compagnies that make games that don't make good on their promises....