Ryzom

With the latest posting from Xavier concerning outposts I fear Ryzom has set itself on the path of self destruction. Although we were told that the players would be able to help direct the evolution of the game it is apparent with this is not the case. The introduction of PvP and now GvG as envisioned by Nevrax and as a result of how outposts will be used, not to mention the Kami/Karavan situation it is obvious that they have always intended this game to be player confrontational. Contrary to how Ryzom was initially presented as a "different" game it is evident that Nevax is becoming another "me too" MMORPG. Such games that encourage PvP etc. last only a few years because the strongest players & guilds destroy the weaker ones who give up and leave the game. With little else to do and no one left to prey upon the stronger players & guilds also leave the game. The unimaginative developers faced with dwindling revenues do the only thing they know what to do. They come out with another version of the same thing such as "Kill & Destroy II" followed by "Kill & Destroy III" etc. The only thing new offered is somewhat better graphics and the ability to change the apprearance of the avatars. Ryzom already has these so there is little incentive to sign up for Ryzom II and thus the demise of the game.

Although we do not have a direct influence on direction of Ryzom we can still do something about it. This is evident from the lack of success of PvP in the game. Most players have simply not participated. We could do the same with outposts. We could just not participate in GvG.

I am not naive enough to think this could be accomplished initially; however, I think after a few guilds are decimated and there are enough survivors left in the game, they could band together to take back their property and defend against their enemies. This might eventually discourage the silliness of GvG and allow Ryzom to last more of its intended 8 years.

navra wrote:...Such games that encourage PvP etc. last only a few years because the strongest players & guilds destroy the weaker ones who give up and leave the game...

Just want to add, that Dark Age of Camelot is still going strong after (what?) 3-4 years? UO is still going after 7(?) years. Eve-Online is still going after a good number of years and doesn't appear to be struggling.

There is a market want for PvP Online Games as shown by the fact nearly every MMORPG around has some form of PvP whether it be full scale "guilds vs guilds" servers specificly created for PvP or simple "duel" commands. I think out of the "main" online games, only EQ2 or City of Heroes have none (not sure on COH though, as i haven't played it - though i know they are talking about / planning an expansion for PvP).

There's nothing wrong with PvP, as long as the players are balanced (no cookie-cutter spec wins all the time scenerio) and that there is a point to PvP'ing. It also helps to cater for the none-pvp'ers should your customer base be mixed (which is what Ryzom appears to be doing).

Ryzom needs the Outposts to inject another tool for the players to create content.

I agree with the original poster. I find that PVP does ONE thing to a MOG, it brings out the UGLINESS in any player. When a player might have logged on and worked a real life issue out by finding friends and working together and laughing and enjoying friendship, they might...in a pvp world, find a weaker and less "ubber" *vomits* player and "teach him a lesson".

Every PVP game I have played (Lineage two was based on gear and level, NOT skill, best geared out, which was simply a matter of buying game cash with REAL cash from the adena farmers; Shadowbane was a HUGE pile of Lagging refuse, so...I didn't even go live with them; and Everquest was a JOKE on PVP servers since you couldn't even level up for all the griefers) have been "release valves" for teen aged boys and girls to vent their angst, and not a whole lot more. I have YET to see a PVP game that punished enough or PREVENTED a high level player from ganking a newbie, or rewarded enough when a player did more than catch someone off guard and actually have to THINK during a PVP battle.

I HATE PVP because I am a woman, and my style is cooperation NOT fist fighting. Are there women that LIKE PVP? I am sure there are, but I am NOT one of them!

I am actually HAPPY that most PVP areas are not used, it is too hard to have a fair fight due to agro mobs in PVP areas. I mean pulling a mob into a PVP is not fair fight, since you turn to defend yourself from the mob, and the other player kills you...no skill needed.

yay let's discuss the 100% unavoidable demise of ryzom while having almost no facts to actually base it on

fun questions:
how many outposts can a guild have?

"In case of conflict between two guilds, the zone around the outpost becomes a PvP area." -> do you know wether or not both guilds have to consent?

do you know what kind of advantages OPs give?

please answer these questions and provide facts, then predict ryzom's death

also

I have YET to see a PVP game that punished enough or PREVENTED a high level player from ganking a newbie, or rewarded enough when a player did more than catch someone off guard and actually have to THINK during a PVP battle.

www.empireuniverse.com german browser game with full pvp that fulfills all the things you listed. i can go into details if you want.
also your whole post is based on a world with full free pvp, which ryzom is not. can you not imagine a game with sane mature people where differences are tackled with words first and fights being used as a last resort?

navra wrote:it is obvious that they have always intended this game to be player confrontational...

If you go back a few months there are thread after thread on PvP, with some very reasonable suggestions. You might want to bump one of them up rather than starting a new one as its worth reexamining what people have said. I don't PvP in general is a bad thing.

But I'm going to briefly reiterate what I said back then.

Organized, purposeful, balanced PvP generally adds to MMORPGs as the conflicts between different players and groups creates more content than any dev-created artificial story line. Several thousand people figuring out how they get along (or don't) can create a very rich environment in which to play. I've seen a few text based MUDs survive quite well primarily because of PvP. In sum, its a good thing. If done right.

The problem that I have with Ryzom's likely implementation is four fold.

First, PvP is pointless unless combat is balanced across combat lines. That was never really the case even in the early days, and then patch 1 came along and completely unbalanced things. As it stands now certain lines do significantly less DPM/special attacks than others at similar levels - and oh yes, are hugely harder to level - and thus unbalance things completely.

Second, there has to be a neutral option. Forcing people to opt-in to a conflict that doesn't really have anything to do with how we play the game day to day really isn't right. Yes, there should be advantages for opting-in (read: new stanzas, new harvesting grounds, tps, etc) but there should not be penalties for not doing so. So far, with a choice of either Kami or Karavan fame we haven't seen the option of neutrality and I doubt we will. This is bad.

Third, what bugs me about GvG outposts is that it does appear we're going to run into the penalty-for-not-joining situation. There are certain regions that are going to be very near to impossible to access (Loria, anyone?) without taking a route through a specific outpost or two. I for one am going to make sure I get every available ticket and spawn in the game before implementation of outposts. I suspect transportation is going to be even more of an issue following it.

Fourth, the track record of Nevrax of rewarding PvP stinks. We didn't get any easily accessible new mat fields - the 'reward' for implementing PvP in the Nexus and Umbra. Instead, what we got was the elimination of excellent/supreme mats for anyone under PR/Forest level 90/140 and massively nerfing supreme/excellent mats throughout the roots. Some 'reward'.

Finally, what has kept me playing the game despite routine broken promises, broken trees, lack of content, and some real interesting takes on customer 'service' (Synergy anyone?) is simply the player community. I suspect that if major GvG gets implemented this way we're going to have a fractured community. This is a problem since I'm not the only one that has this as their primary reason to continue.

So fix the engine, get the background right, give people options...and then implement GvG and PvP, and I and others will welcome it. If its implemented right, we all will. If its implemented in the current broken structure, it may end up being as big a disaster for retention as patch 1.

navra wrote:With the latest posting from Xavier concerning outposts I fear Ryzom has set itself on the path of self destruction.

Although we were told that the players would be able to help direct the evolution of the game it is apparent with this is not the case. The introduction of PvP and now GvG as envisioned by Nevrax and as a result of how outposts will be used, not to mention the Kami/Karavan situation it is obvious that they have always intended this game to be player confrontational. Contrary to how Ryzom was initially presented as a "different" game it is evident that Nevax is becoming another "me too" MMORPG. Such games that encourage PvP etc. last only a few years because the strongest players & guilds destroy the weaker ones who give up and leave the game. With little else to do and no one left to prey upon the stronger players & guilds also leave the game. The unimaginative developers faced with dwindling revenues do the only thing they know what to do. They come out with another version of the same thing such as "Kill & Destroy II" followed by "Kill & Destroy III" etc. The only thing new offered is somewhat better graphics and the ability to change the apprearance of the avatars. Ryzom already has these so there is little incentive to sign up for Ryzom II and thus the demise of the game.

Although we do not have a direct influence on direction of Ryzom we can still do something about it. This is evident from the lack of success of PvP in the game. Most players have simply not participated. We could do the same with outposts. We could just not participate in GvG.

I am not naive enough to think this could be accomplished initially; however, I think after a few guilds are decimated and there are enough survivors left in the game, they could band together to take back their property and defend against their enemies. This might eventually discourage the silliness of GvG and allow Ryzom to last more of its intended 8 years.

If you think pvp or conflict is going to be (or has been) the thing that kills this game you haven't been paying attention. On the same note if you think outposts and pvp are going to save this game, you also haven't been paying attention. Unless things change, Ryzom will never take off, it will never manage to hold on to long time players, and it will never become anything special unless things change. So what is the problem?

1) The lack of quests, missions, and anything to do that has any meaning.
The only quests this game has in it are the rites. As far as anything has been said, that is the only planned quest/mission system. They have said that 2-3 new rites will be issued every 2-3 weeks. That means 1 rite per week. Now take into account that not every rite can be done by every person due to fame, level, skill and other prereqs. So it's not unrealistic to say that each player will have access to one or 2 new missions per month. This just isn't going to hold players interest. The rites aren't that complicated either, they are all simply finding someone, following someone, bringing something to someone, or other simplistic tasks. There are no puzzles and they aren't especially fulfulling or challenging. To make matters worse unlike most games where the quest/mission system pulls you deeper into the game and the stories of the game, Ryzoms is not setup to do that. Which brings me to the second problem.

2) The complete lack of story in game and lack game elements based upon the story.
The NPC's, the places, the people, all of it mean nothing unless you visit the website. The Kami and the KAravan tell you nothing about them. There are no NPC's to talk to about game current events. NPC's amount to mindless zombies walking around with no goal or purpose. Heck even the Kitin invasions that players have had a part in. If you were a new player and never went to the website, you would have no clue anything had ever happened.

What it comes down to is that the only way that this game will ever take off is if they come up with someway to get REAL missions/quests in the game at a much faster rate or at least a higher quantity. And if they start making the story relevant to the everyday actions of players.

lyrah68 wrote:I have YET to see a PVP game that punished enough or PREVENTED a high level player from ganking a newbie, or rewarded enough when a player did more than catch someone off guard and actually have to THINK during a PVP battle.

MU online punished you if you killed anyone. There was not much pointless killing. Most people killed when it was time to have pvp and not any other time just to do so. This game was also pvp in every area of the map, so people couldn't hide from it And yes, some people would kill pointlessly, but the game did punish them and others did gang up on them and punish them as well.

I've been playing DAoC for over 2 years and enjoy the PvP aspects. Ryzom GvG/PvP will be voluntary, so it's not as though you can get ganked walking around. You know where the PvP areas are, so if you aren't willing to defend yourself stay away. Seems simple enough to me.

Although the AI in the PvE areas of Ryzom are better than most games, I am looking forward to matching my wits against some real people. It will be a nice change of pace from time to time. I also think the PvP/GvG area's will make team/guild play much more important. It should be stronger player ties in the game too.

Just my two cents.

Rasta

navra wrote:With the latest posting from Xavier concerning outposts I fear Ryzom has set itself on the path of self destruction. Although we were told that the players would be able to help direct the evolution of the game it is apparent with this is not the case. The introduction of PvP and now GvG as envisioned by Nevrax and as a result of how outposts will be used, not to mention the Kami/Karavan situation it is obvious that they have always intended this game to be player confrontational. Contrary to how Ryzom was initially presented as a "different" game it is evident that Nevax is becoming another "me too" MMORPG. Such games that encourage PvP etc. last only a few years because the strongest players & guilds destroy the weaker ones who give up and leave the game. With little else to do and no one left to prey upon the stronger players & guilds also leave the game. The unimaginative developers faced with dwindling revenues do the only thing they know what to do. They come out with another version of the same thing such as "Kill & Destroy II" followed by "Kill & Destroy III" etc. The only thing new offered is somewhat better graphics and the ability to change the apprearance of the avatars. Ryzom already has these so there is little incentive to sign up for Ryzom II and thus the demise of the game.

Although we do not have a direct influence on direction of Ryzom we can still do something about it. This is evident from the lack of success of PvP in the game. Most players have simply not participated. We could do the same with outposts. We could just not participate in GvG.

I am not naive enough to think this could be accomplished initially; however, I think after a few guilds are decimated and there are enough survivors left in the game, they could band together to take back their property and defend against their enemies. This might eventually discourage the silliness of GvG and allow Ryzom to last more of its intended 8 years.

Pretty much what I've been thinking.
There are PvP games out there and I never had an inkling that this was one of them.

P.S. I have not read one of yer posts in months, but I saw yer name, please do us all a favor and shut up Raynes. Heard ya may be quitting on de grapevine, so dun let a yubo hit ya in de ass on de way out.

PVP in this game punishes the "peaceful crafters" that are without guild. I have a guild, but just have not had any motivation to log on the grind. What is the goal, what is the AIM of it all?? What new skill? What new pattern? what new ability? What new mob? What new ANYTHING? Yep...just like I thought.

I am not saying that there isn't ANY pvp game that works, I AM saying that I have yet to play a game with PVP that I thought was enjoyable.

I think, looking on PVP from a distance, that this is another issue of player types. If you are an achiever, you are BOUND to hit the ceiling eventually, been there, killed that boss mob, got the armor to PROVE it...NOW what??!! Oh yeah...PVP...another player has a brain...bound to be more of a challenge. At least that is the thinking behind it. And if PVP works...all of this is TRUE. If PVP does NOT work...then it isn't true.

See, crafters HAVE to harvest, and in order to harvest the BEST...they HAVE to go into PVP areas. The idea of avoiding PVP areas forever...the way things currently are is basically saying..."don't travel from racial land to racial land, don't harvest or craft and don't explore."

Sorry, I am SURE you can tell that that is not a reasonable expectation.

CONCENTUAL PVP involves an OFF on switch (with a reasonable change timer, Ryzom has proven that they got the timers working reasonably well, so NO biggie on that one), not having to avoid certain areas, which will be expanding. Not sure about the rest of you, but the outposts, according to what I have read, the area around an outpost is PVP, not GVG, but OPEN permanent PVP. Which means, griefers will hang out near them and enjoy open season on other players.

Have fun, Outposts will likely END my Ryzom days. I was hoping an OFF switch would be brought up, but it isn't. Noncentual PVP isn't any different than NON concentual SEX, rape is rape. And I don't like it!

jcguid wrote:I've been playing DAoC for over 2 years and enjoy the PvP aspects. Ryzom GvG/PvP will be voluntary, so it's not as though you can get ganked walking around. You know where the PvP areas are, so if you aren't willing to defend yourself stay away. Seems simple enough to me.

Although the AI in the PvE areas of Ryzom are better than most games, I am looking forward to matching my wits against some real people. It will be a nice change of pace from time to time. I also think the PvP/GvG area's will make team/guild play much more important. It should be stronger player ties in the game too.

Just my two cents.

Rasta