Ryzom

Totnkof wrote: Not even close to covering costs... I'll use US dollars as thats what I'm familiar with. I've been involved in the games industry over the past year or so and have been in pretty close contact with several other software engineers, both those working on games and those who are not (to lend some credibility to the following).

A decent computer programmer will be getting about $60,000 a year (usually more, but I'm being conservative).
That's $5,000 a month per programmer.
6 programmers x 5,000 = $30,000 a month for developmers

CEO and Admin pay are always more and are nearly always in the 6-7 figure range (depending on company size)
We'll say $100,000 for a CEO who does a lot of work and does a lot of the HR work themselves.
That's another $8340 a month. Total so far is $38,340 a month.

Servers. Oh this is gonna be a biggie. MMORPG had a discussion a while back that basically concluded that to run a MMO server cost about $5,000 per 500 clients. Assuming your 2000 clients, that's $20,000 for running the server. Add another $3,000 for a solid connection to an internet backbone and another $1,000 or so for tech support on the servers and you're looking at $24,000 a month to keep the game live. To put this cost in perspective, WoW costs about $100 million a year in hosting fees. Granted they are much much larger, but you can also assume that they have much greater bargaining power to get better rates.
Running total is now at $62,340 a month.

so, 16,000 euros in game subs fees = $20,892.80
meaning $41,447.20 short a month.
ouch.

Now I don't think Ryzom has 6 developers currently. I think its more likely about 2 (if that), so there is some money saved, but still no where near being close to profitable. And that is the goal. They want to make money with the game so simply drawing even isn't good enough. Nevrax and GameForge were both unable to make Ryzom profitable and both companies had the advantage of a larger player pool to begin with.

The main reason they are potentially going to offer this new sub length is because the company is desperate for money. They get the cash now and can invest it or develop the game enough to gain other investors. In all probability, SW is having a lot of issues in getting people to invest in Ryzom. And since the game isn't profitable (never has been), SW is facing the uphill battle of getting investors to throw money at a risky investment while losing money to hosting fees and employee salaries. And the truly sad part is that any investor worth their salt would take one look at Ryzom and say "no way". Its never turned a profit, its losing its client base, it has no visibility on the MMO scene and is quickly becoming outdated.

1, This is correct, though I believe Ryzom(WinchGate) is paying them less currently, I believe that there is currently 2-3 fulltime developers, and that they have found a different solution to the rest of the developers.

2, This is way off, this changes and depends on the company and will never be the same. I can tell you right now, that John Smedley and Trond Arne Aas (SOE CEO AND FUNCOM CEO) are not in the same league paycheck wise. Just trust me on that.
And furthermore, in a company like this, where you are trying to get back on your feet, some CEO's (especially inexperienced ones as this one probably is), will take just enough to make a decent living for himself, until the company is actually making money.

3, lawl, dont ever listen to MMORPG.com for stuff like that. Most servers that are used for hosting games arent handled in "per 500 customers", they are handled in how much data is to be stored on them, (regions/graphics/heavy load areas) and then how many subservers are needed (for specific areas that will have a heavier load then the rest, think Restuss in SWG/Battlegrounds in WoW). Most decent servers can handle up to 5 000 players at once, they rarely deal in less then 3 000 capability.
Also, the average numbers MMORPG.com is giving you is bullcrap. Simple as that. And yes I know that for a fact.

4, This to me proves your ignorance, Ive personally sat in meetings with investors and business starting people discussing Ryzom (We discuss alot of possible businesses) and they see a huge potential in it, but also a tremendous amount of work needed.
The men that I discuss business with have each made 100 000 000 dollars each on businesses that theyve established and worked with in the past, so I think they are fully capable of determining wether or not something can be profitable.
In WinchGate's case though, The way they are handling things right now will never get them anywhere, because they arent doing the things necesarry to turn the tide.
But with the correct management, the correct approach, Saga of Ryzom could easily swing up to 50 000/100 000 customers in a years time. And be extremely profitable. I even see a way to turn it profitable in a year/year and a half, and then do a huge turn (that would screw the playerbase) and make a freakin fortune. (as in 250 000 000 dollars in the blink of an eye).
The problem is the amount of work and money necesarry to be able to pull it off.

tigrus wrote:The problem is the amount of work and money necesarry to be able to pull it off.

And how much would be needed? Money I mean...

symolan wrote:And how much would be needed? Money I mean...

Money? 100 000 dollars over a 6 month period to turn it really profitable.
50 000 dollars to make it "break even".
Then server cost + developer cost on top of that.

So id estimate 350 000 dollars in a 6 month period.
The real problem is the time that youd need to take.
Management + Strategy team alone would have to work 10/15 hours a day 7 days a week for 6 months.
My friends dont have that kind of time anymore, and neither do i now that I run my own business and im preparing for the armed forces as well for fun.

symolan wrote:And how much would be needed? Money I mean...

The Ryzom.org Budget Prevision is old but still valid, gives some clues at least.
http://www.ryzom.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=111

rosarot wrote:The Ryzom.org Budget Prevision is old but still valid, gives some clues at least.
http://www.ryzom.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=111

Absolutely not, Xavier seems like an intellegent person, but he has the business talent of a dead sea-monkey.

Im talking about whats needed to turn Ryzom from a game/mmo, that survives, to a business that creates a profit.

And to be quite honest, when I debate with my buddies whats necesarry to make that happen, the only thing we think about is profit. Where can we make cuts, who is 100% necesarry to running it, and developing it, and who is deadmeat.
Who do we have to hire to create exact results, etc.

Xavier thinks about the future of the game and its development, coding etc.
I think about whats necesarry to get more then what i put in back, moneywise.

So, you can take his budget, cut 35-50% of development salaries. And add, 200-300 000 on top of that for 6 months, then you have my estimate guess as to what would be needed to make it profitable.

I like your input, Thomas, but is there a way to make it profitable without screwing the player base ?

tigrus wrote:2, This is way off, this changes and depends on the company and will never be the same. I can tell you right now, that John Smedley and Trond Arne Aas (SOE CEO AND FUNCOM CEO) are not in the same league paycheck wise. Just trust me on that.
And furthermore, in a company like this, where you are trying to get back on your feet, some CEO's (especially inexperienced ones as this one probably is), will take just enough to make a decent living for himself, until the company is actually making money.

the fact that it varies from company to company is why there was a range on the amount I listed. From $100,000 to 10 mil is a huge range and covers the majority of the CEOs in the gaming industry. I seriously doubt that the CEO of SOE makes less than 100k.
Sure, some CEOs take a hit to the pay, but the cash saved there is usually spent on hiring more experienced staff.

tigrus wrote:3, lawl, dont ever listen to MMORPG.com for stuff like that. Most servers that are used for hosting games arent handled in "per 500 customers", they are handled in how much data is to be stored on them, (regions/graphics/heavy load areas) and then how many subservers are needed (for specific areas that will have a heavier load then the rest, think Restuss in SWG/Battlegrounds in WoW). Most decent servers can handle up to 5 000 players at once, they rarely deal in less then 3 000 capability.
Also, the average numbers MMORPG.com is giving you is bullcrap. Simple as that. And yes I know that for a fact.

I don't doubt that there is a lot of room for debate in the number they came up with. However, I take their group opinion over the opinion of SunCe, 'l33t kiddie' of Atys. Yes, most servers are built for larger numbers and the debate itself was on MMOs servers, not FPS or RTS servers which are designed for small groups. And as with all numbers there is a ton of room for debate. But I still believe they are in the right ball park when all server costs are added up (that's CSR and servers).

tigrus wrote:This to me proves your ignorance, Ive personally sat in meetings with investors and business starting people discussing Ryzom (We discuss alot of possible businesses) and they see a huge potential in it, but also a tremendous amount of work needed.
The men that I discuss business with have each made 100 000 000 dollars each on businesses that theyve established and worked with in the past, so I think they are fully capable of determining wether or not something can be profitable.
In WinchGate's case though, The way they are handling things right now will never get them anywhere, because they arent doing the things necesarry to turn the tide.
But with the correct management, the correct approach, Saga of Ryzom could easily swing up to 50 000/100 000 customers in a years time. And be extremely profitable. I even see a way to turn it profitable in a year/year and a half, and then do a huge turn (that would screw the playerbase) and make a freakin fortune. (as in 250 000 000 dollars in the blink of an eye).
The problem is the amount of work and money necesarry to be able to pull it off.

Oddly enough my father and my uncle are both in the same category of folks as you listed above. Neither of them, nor their business associates that I've schmoozed with, would touch Ryzom with a ten foot pole (I brought it up to them when GF was in the process of failing). Whats more the game has a proven track record of failing due to lack of funds. Usually a good indicator that no one was interested in investing in it (any more than they already were). Also the same reason that GF was having issues selling off the game.

Don't get me wrong. If Ryzom had just been released or was hoping to be released soon, then I'd be agreeing with you. It would have people signed up from all over. But that isn't the case. The product is old, outdated, unfinished and is seeing it's player base dwindle. So, as you said, there would have to be a ton of work done, both marketing and development before the product saw enough people sign up to make it profitable. That's a huge investment that many aren't willing to make, especially when the game has failed in doing that twice before. If you found investors who were willing to 'babysit' their investment night and day, then you might have some limited success, but you wouldn't be seeing profit within a year.

On top of that, the changes made to the game and the rate at which the game would have to develop would alienate the majority of the player base. SWG comes to mind. Granted in the grand scheme of making Ryzom profitable, they wouldn't matter, but part of me wants to see Ryzom become the dream that was originally painted for us, not what will quickly draw the biggest crowd.

EDIT: As far as investing or not, its a matter of opinion and there is no right or wrong answer. It depends large on how much you want to babysit the investment and how much effort beyond the cash investment you want to give the company/game. Wasn't sure if that was clear enough in the above.

Ok, it seems that new players cannot post, nor vote in polls. This makes the financial debate utterly worthless - although I don't think it invalidates the general feeling that currently there are not enough players to sustain Ryzom long-term.

My posts in this thread have come off rather negative (and in a way this was intentional) but the semi-positive message didn't perhaps come through clearly enough.

Exicte us. Show us roadmaps, give us interviews, talk to us. Tell us your plans, create something to look forward to. You need more players, that much is obvious, and right now the only thing in the world that is going to get you players is this.


As an aside, I would like to pass on a message of frustration from the player that sent me a PM about new players inability to vote, or post.

EDIT: I know I am far from guiltless here, but could we perhaps divert any further financial discussions to a seperate thread?

*hugs* - 6th.

I think the lifetime sub idea is a good one, but the timing (considering the world wide economy atm) might be a bit off. Personally, I wouldn't want to pay that much in a lump sum either - perhaps if the payment plan were 25% quarterly over a year I might commit to it.

tigrus wrote:My friends dont have that kind of time anymore, and neither do i now that I run my own business and im preparing for the armed forces as well for fun.

/Sigh

Still being an arrogant noob I see, Sun. You really should work on that, makes people care less for your opinion just because you're being an ass. If I didn't know you and read that, I would immediately write off everything you said as worthless lol. (I.E. Bull ****)

Remember, Ryzom forums or not. This is the internet, and when you start bragging about having your own business and doing things like join the armed forces for "Fun" you just sound like a little kid trying to sound grown, Or just an ass

Its good to be confident. its bad to be arrogant.(fine line between the two) I know I'm not around you to keep you strait anymore, but that doesn't mean you can't still listen. lol

Take care man.

*waves at everyone*