Ryzom

After the threads mentioning professional athletes, and previous threads asking for some kind of dapper sinks, it occured to me that we could just pay the guards to take a dive.

what you do, is when you pay to declare the attack, you can also pay extra (exorbitant) fees to move the attacker threshold up, up to level 5, so you commence the attack at level 5 (with all the appropriate guards spawning etc)
this would guarantee the attack going through to the defense phase, where the defenders could do the same thing. The initial defenders would be fighting to keep the threshold down same as before.

the other financial attack option, is to buy "kill-all-guard" consumables - again for truly enormous prices. Probably in a stack with each use accounting for a squad of guards. These are non-transferable, only acquirable at the time of declaration, only valid for the attack they are declared for, must be used from within the OP combat area.. and the defenders know who is carrying them
from a RP justification, they could be Ma-duk getting peckish, Matis poisoning the guard supplies, nubile trykerettes enticing the squad off to the pub, False orders sending gullible Fyrosians off duty or Karavan orbital laser strikes..
To prevent this attack, the defenders must hunt down the carrier and prevent them from activating the consumables before they can be used inside the OP zone. The attacker has to weigh up wether to use them early to guarantee passing the theshold, or using them later to push it higher.

the first option, buying off entire rounds, gets the battle going at a higher level, and brings the battle through to the defense phase, where the owning guild can pay for the same effect - or just fight it out. With this battle balance issues remain pretty much the same - it just costs a hell of a lot more.

the second option, buying guard-nuking tickets, has the potential to give a small team of attackers victory over a massive army of defenders - requiring the defenders to mount an active defense, and prevent the "bomb carrier" from getting into range.

Balance issues - cant buy off more than 5 rounds, price increases as you buy more. Guard nuking tickets- each squad worth probably costing more than the actual declaration itself, takes significant time to activate ( longer than anti-magic aura/invul ), must be OP tagged to use, and within the zone. Defense side must know who they need to watch out for.

thanks for the good suggestions everyone and not taking the thread off topic as much as some people are clearly trying to do. With some luck gameforge will pay some attention to the possible ideas, or tell us to stop wasting our time.

Here --> http://forums.ryzom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=372030&postcount=33 <-- is my idea that I would still like to see on OPs, Tho I don't think it would help the (lol...) Balance... It would still make them cooler... since once all the OPs are owned by Kara, If kami dont first, Karas will quit from being bored, So Kami will have a chance again anyway

raven41 wrote:Here --> http://forums.ryzom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=372030&postcount=33 <-- is my idea that I would still like to see on OPs, Tho I don't think it would help the (lol...) Balance... It would still make them cooler... since once all the OPs are owned by Kara, If kami dont first, Karas will quit from being bored, So Kami will have a chance again anyway

that was actually sorta similar to a suggestion that I ticketed.....

kyesmith wrote:as some people are clearly trying to do.

Lable it flaming or off topic all you like, it doesn't change the fact it's simply disagreement, which myself & others are going to express from time to time.
If and when I agree with something I'm quite capable of saying so, the question is, are you able to take some criticism when people disagree?

norvic wrote:Dont often agree with DT but this post I reckon is a pretty accurate assesment OOC he is obviuosly nearly sane unlike Jayce.

You don't think thats exactly how I feel too? Our common goals don't begin and end with outposts.

I believe that the main problem with outposts is that outposts are it as far as it goes for content for long-term players currently. You can't say that I've ever disagreed theres not enough alternatives, I've said it multipul times. And yes the Saga just doesn't go anywhere. EP2 was aaaaages ago, we havn't had a proper Kitin Raid in aaaaages (exc the halloween event which while fun wasn't exactly very RP related), no bandit Raid, no nothing except outposts. Even all of this didn't even seem to have some kind of long-lasting effect on the game.
The thing is (which I have also always said) to secure the games future Nexrax and now GF had to and still have to concentrate on increasing income which unfortunatly for us, inevitably means, new players come first.

Anywho, this is indeed going a bit off topic so before the O-P has another hissy fit I had better stop typing and hit the submit button.

katriell wrote:Mithur, I suspect you have just intelligably explained part of the reason some other games have s*** communities, and demonstrated a reason everyone here should be worried that Ryzom's will become just like them.

This game have two sides: the PvE side, where everyone helps. If I see a rez help in region, I go if I can, be a kami or a kara, it's the same. I hunt with kami or with kara, even I've crafted things for newbs kami or kara. And, AFAIK, almost everyone makes the same.

But, when the war comes, I don't see the point in be charitable, at least I don't see any obligation to adopt a "charitable" RP Stanza. If you take that stanza, fine, It looks great to me. Maybe one day I take a PC like that. But, and that is my point, if some people want to affront the OP war with a more aggresive stanza, is fine for me, at least while they don't bring it out the war.

Witch I don't see is why the KA have to feel guilty just by be better. There are war, they do good the war.

There have been OP for a long time. No faction have all OPs. I don't see the malignity of the people here.

And, by the way, is fine for me propose revamp the OP, but... there are more important things first, I think, and there are better moments than this, at least, I think so.

mrshad wrote:Right...we all do that from time to time.

But, at the heart of MMOGs is the thought that time spent playing will result in improvements for your character. This branches into a lot of different activities (for example: trekking your guildmates helps you by making yoru guild stronger, etc.)

This, in part, helps explain why roleplayers are a minority in MMOGs. Time spent roleplaying does not neccisarily result in an improvent in character abilities. Hence the unpopularity of The Ring. Sure, 'fun' things can be done there, but there is no tangible reward, so no one really uses it.

Removing the tangible reward from OPs would remove the incentive to fight for them. Some would do it just because it is fun for them, but most would not. The 2.5 hours spent at the fight would not result in anything at all, and most people would loose interest.

I disagree, but to prove my point, I'd have to cite experiences I've had in other games, in which events that are very much like OP battles occured without any "tangible" reward, except for the reward of knowing that you scored a point for your side. And in addition to this, non-RPers and RPers alike joined in on these events, the first more so than the second actually...but I'm sure many people would prefer for this discussion to be kept purely within the realm of Ryzom, so I will not venture there.

So, I suppose we should just agree to disagree

tydamus wrote:Constructive debates are fine but please watch your heated arguments. I don't want to have to close this thread. Just a reminder, since there is a developing pattern.

Regards,

It may be that there is a problem with the game mechanics, which encourages player aggressiveness.

WARNING: The following post may contain constructive material; judge at your own risk.

In response to the original post, flaming and suspicion of motives aside, outposts are boring and meaningless. So why not combine them with something else just as boring and meaningless: tribes. This was, in fact, the initial plan for these little points on the map, on which I will expand.

Remember the boxed game manual? Yeah, that little booklet that nearly describes another game entirely? This thing actually alludes to a more exciting and lively future for outposts, not only dynamic but also meaningful to story and gameplay. Think of this as more of a summary of what could be rather than an original suggestion, but nevertheless one I would like to see considered (or else I wouldn't be typing it all out ) for the gaining, though currently less relevant since everything's already been claimed, and continued possession, which has already come up in this thread, of outposts.

I. Obtaining an Outpost

... Guilds must take and complete Guild Missions, which involve the capture and defense of various outposts from NPC factions. ... Once you receive a guild mission, you will need to take control of an outpost.

As I understand it, any current unclaimed outposts are inhabited by mysterious "marauders" (is there even reference to these guys anywhere? any lore-based justification? or are they just placeholders added at the last minute?). You declare on one of these locations, beat the marauders to a bloody pulp, and voilà - the folks disappear and you're in control. How... disappointingly simple and boring?

The manual continues with explaining that tribes control and inhabit the outposts in the wild (hmm, now THAT makes more sense!) and that two methods of obtaining an outpost exist (the whole guild mission, guild experience, and guild fame stuff is already obsolete and a totally different issue entirely, so I won't mull on that). The first way is through diplomacy should your guild have enough fame (again, fame being irrelevent); the seond is by force if your guild lacks the required fame.

So... why not update the idea and link the aquisition of outposts with tribes, as was originally intended? Here's one way to do it: initiate the diplomacy/force options. If a tribe resides in a region in which an outpost lays unclaimed, they will, by default, control it (giving a tribe their first actual purpose, aside from just sitting there waiting to kill your aggro (or you )). If two tribes of opposing fame reside in that region, one of random choosing will take control and face occasional attacks from the other; sometimes these attacks will be successful and the outpost will change hands between the tribes while other attacks will be thwarted (which isn't really necessary, but would still make for interesting events at the otherwise lifeless and dull outpost locations). To obtain an outpost, guild members can either complete a series of involved missions from that tribe if they have enough fame (remember those outpost NPCs in camp?), or forcibly attack that tribe until they surrender:

... If your fame score towards the tribe that controls the outpost is neutral or higher, you can attempt to negotiate for control of the outpost. ... If your guild accomplishes enough tasks, the tribe will give you control of the outpost.

... After making a declaration of war ... your guild will be able to attack members of the tribe. Once enough tribe members have been slain, the Captain and his guards will appear. Slaying that Captain and his guards will cause the other tribe members to flee and the outpost will be yours.

Let's consider an example. Wooky Workship in Knoll of Dissent is unclaimed, and the Matisian Border Guards have control over it. My guild can either waltz in and massacre their camp, guards, and Captain until they abandon the outpost to our control, or we can run a series of missions for them if our members have enough fame (0 or greater) to do so. The missions can by set on a timer, say for example a few days, during which we must complete them. This also allows other guilds to take up the diplomatic challenge should we fail (suppose too few of our members were not dedicated enough, or did not have positive fame to allow for such). In that case, we cannot try again for a period of time, say a week, during which other guilds can make an attempt to win the outpost.

Therefore, to obtain an outpost, your fame with the tribe in control will determine whether you must complete their missions or slay them into submission.

II. Keeping an Outpost

Currently, any outpost won by a guild just sits there. The drill/bore plucks away at Atys, the guildhall building... um, inventories... well, you get the idea, these things are pretty boring.

So if tribes were factored into the obtaining of an outpost, what next? If your guild achieved the required missions, the outpost will be transferred peacefully and the tribe will not attack you. [This, however, would also be boring, so I would add in blaah's suggestion for random marauder raids, or perhaps that of any opposing tribe; in the Wooky Workshop example the First Deserters would, logically, be the attackers.] Otherwise, if force was used, the outpost will be attacked regularly (not frequently) by that tribe:

... Taking the outpost by force will force you to defend the outpost ... - even after the Captain is slain, the tribe will continue to attempt to retake the outpost.

Again, in accordance to blaah's idea, either of these defenses will be limited to guild participation only. The same would apply to the obtaining of an outpost, since missions are available only to that guild's members, and if a guild can't take the post by force then surely they can't defend it. This would introduce some of the guild-only activity intended for outposts, while GvG (AvA, FvF, what have you) battles would remain the same.

That's basically my adaptation of the original plan for outposts. Interestingly, there's no mention anywhere in the manual of outposts providing direct benefit (be it catalyzers, flowers, or materials); instead, they served only as a part in guild missions that improved guild experience, which in turn could be used to "upgrade your guild hall by adding trainer NPCs and other additional extensions." It's strange to see how the Saga of Ryzom transformed into a PvP game, huh?

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motan wrote:It may be that there is a problem with the game mechanics, which encourages player aggressiveness.

It may be that there is a problem with player aggressiveness, which fashions paper tigers of the game mechanics. The mechanics of outposts are working quite as intended, but leave wide open a door for expansion... and the possibilities could be really cool!

I know I just posted a really long reply, and you're quite welcome to skip over it if you haven't the time or interest, but either way it's an honest consideration and musing on my part.

Some ideas to fix OP battles a bit.

PvP wars are never a that simple thing to balance. To simplify down what I love to see, it would be fun, balanced and everyone who wants having the chance to take part. I'll just list first some of the things I see as poor points in Ryzom OP battles and also some things that can't be take advantage of in it's current form.

All comes down to numbers now.

This is as it is. Would be poor for a game to not allow all who want to join a battle the chance. By making a certain limit it would mean that there are people sitting around the battlefield watching. Someone with a low skills could like to join, but he'll never be given the chance as all those spots are taken by a 250 lvl veteran. Also depending on the implementation it would have al rushing to be first on battle to not be left out or one guild leader making the choices. Not good at all. But this will keep the flaw of numbers only dictating how the battle goes. There are things that could keep the influece of numbers in check, but those are quite inexistent here. Also only having the owning guild battle some marauders sounds like a very poor solution, why can't their friends help them like in normal OP battle. It would be an artificial restriction and poor one also.

There sadly are not much tactics that could have a big influence in combat compared to numbers so it's mostly just hack and slash. Some things that normally do make matter are quite inexistent.

- terrain
Has almost 0 effect here.

- skill/training
Same problem as mostly all online RPGs have. Skill level is capped so not much of a difference. Comparing 2 AoDs in combat we can see that they are almost the same, not much difference (other could have more HP with having fight 250 also). This is especially true in mass combat. In a server that is over 2 years old we are bound to see loads of 250 level people.

- equipment
Both sides have in long run about the best equipment to use. Only difference could be OP mats, but that's about that. Not much advantage can be gained this way.

- morale
Only affects who will join a battle, no game mechanical advantage at all.

- leadership/organization
Has some value, but in online games there are normally many good leaders. Can affect a bit how people do in battle, but has not much against superior numbers.

- guerrilla warfare
Has almost no use. Trying to damage an army with healers with 10 to 1 odds will just create a massacre. You can't touch enemy supplies much or can you get anyone killed. They are resurrected immediatelly or just respawn in a rare case to a close respawn point and run back. Will just create more losses than any real effect.

- tactics
Has some meaning here. Basically how many healers, mages, melee fighters and ranged fighters you take to battle, how you mix them. Where are they during the battle and etc. Altough after few years, both sides know what they need so it lessens the effect a lot.

- strategy
Strategy before battle has propably the most meaning. Most effect it does is to try to keep the amount of enemies as low as possible to even out the numbers. So declare a war when there is christmas dinner or work/school time of enemies, in middle of the night and etc. As numbers mean by far more than anything else, this has some value. Altough it mostly just annoys players to have battles in times like that.

Unless there is not much else than numbers that affect the outcome of the battle then you will see poor PvP in the end. It'll just be massing enough people to win the battle and seeing odd hours of battles to have as few enemy as possible.

But some of the normal points could also be used here to get some variety. This is what I'd try to do to get some changes.

1. Healing and Area of Effect is overly powerful in Ryzom. I know that healing has been reduced in strenght already, but in my opinion it's still way too strong influence in a battle. But keeping it normal for PvE I'd do this:
- Make AoE work as real AoE in PvP mode. So all bombs and etc will hit who is closest and not only enemies or only friends. So you just can't spam bombs like you want. This would need some thinking from the part of the player and also give weaker side the possibility to use friendly fire better. So all AoE would work on all who are closest, no matter what side.
- Do not allow resurrection during OP battles for people who are tagged as an attacker or defender. This would give a new tactical edge to use in battle and make guerrilla warfare possible. When someone dies, they actually die. Other choice is that if you die you can't be an attacker or defender anymore, but can still be resurrected. In worst case it would be 2 hours of not playing (no one forced them to that OP battle) and in better case they can still do something else.

2. Give morale/homeland some boost. People fighting for their own land has been know to be a lot better in combat than some foreign invasion force.
- Give people fighting in their homeland in OP battles a bonus. They fight for their home and they know the terrain better than anyone. With this I mean give them an individual bonus (to attack/defence/etc). This would at least help weaker side in OP battles in their own lands.

These are just few ideas to make OP battles more fun for everyone. I do have more ideas, but these would be the ones I'd try first.