Ryzom

swe999 wrote:uh Noin, the karavan teleporter in Void is like right where everyone always treks to...

But when the spires go in and the karavan do not have control of that region, I will no longer be able to use that TP. That is what I was referring to.

The Kami TP will be working, and I will not be able to use it until the Karavan figure out the technology to spoof me as a Kami lover temporarily just so I can teleport.


Noin.

Well.. I can't believe they're going to implement this tbh.

I didn't level 250 levels in pr forage to have to ask someone aligned with a faction to dig sup mats for me. So now, if I want to stay in the game after they implement this system, I have to pick a side. And, it pretty-much goes without saying, that means I have to pvp. Or become a target.

And yeah, I thought that earning dappers was the point of the karavan and kami teleporting us around all the time.. otherwise, why have we been paying them for the past year?

For Noin: We won't be formed into a group of homins in the same situation, we'll be formed into two groups of homins in the same situation but divided, and one (rapidly leaving) group of very bitter ex-neutral homins who picked a side because they were forced too and resent having to join in the pvp.

Can't you just pick a side and turn your PvP flag off?

forever wrote:Can't you just pick a side and turn your PvP flag off?

Is it even possible to join a side and still avoid pvp? Thought that just meant you couldn't attack someone until they attack you first...

Yeah, the PvP is seperate from the Karavan-Neutral-Kami situation. It is not impossible for you to get there.

In fact you can probably leave your mount at a location that you may TP to that is close to the PR area you wish to harvest in. From there, you ride your mount (instead of just having him stand at the stables and get baths) to a safe area near your harveting area and begin your usual deal.

I think it will really add a bunch of new details to the game, and end up that everything is better in the end.

Lathaniel, I would hope that you do not think Neutral is the easy way to have everything. That is never the case anywhere. I imagine if you hang out for a bit you will even get to hear people who are non-neutral complaining because there are all these rights that the Neutrals can do that a faction aligned person cannot.

It is all a choice. You can say it is better to be non-neutral at the moment, and I can say that that is not quite true as any area that is Kami held currently I will not be able to get to and you will be able to get to.

It's a harsh choice for everyone. We are all used to having freedom laziness.


Noin.

you're mixing up earlier documents with these new ones. in the upcoming system noone will have to pvp, unless they choose to via the pvp flag or own an outpost which is under attack.

No, I don't think there should be an easy way to have everything. I think the way the tps under lvl 200 are handled should be applied to all tps - the neutrals should be allowed access to some under kami control and some under karavan control. Including some in pr and some not. No more in total, and no less in total than the aligned homins.

I do however see being kami/karavan aligned as by far the easiest route to go.

And Noin, using a mount to get all the way across wastelands doesn't seem very likely to me, I'd be more likely to die than if I just solo'd it on foot.

As far as faction rites go, I fail to see how a neutral could ever get more than an aligned homin. Iirc neutrals are limited to +50/-50 fame with the factions. That means, if I I have +50 fame with kami, I can do kami rites only, b/c I have -50 fame with karavan, and vice-versa. If I'm a kami follower I can have +100 kami and -100 karavan, so ok, I still can't do karavan rites, but hey, I can do all kami rites that go between +50 and +100 fame, so at least I'm still better off than a neutral.

You could argue that a neutral could just swap their fame over from one faction to the other, but then so can a faction-aligned homin. The only thing that makes it more difficult is the fact that you may have higher fame with that faction if you're aligned with it than a neutral might have, but then again, maybe you won't.

marct wrote: I think it will really add a bunch of new details to the game,

Yes.

marct wrote: and end up that everything is better in the end.

Not convinced.

marct wrote: Lathaniel, I would hope that you do not think Neutral is the easy way to have everything. That is never the case anywhere. I imagine if you hang out for a bit you will even get to hear people who are non-neutral complaining because there are all these rights that the Neutrals can do that a faction aligned person cannot.

I doubt this, unless there are some radical changes to the latest trickle of info.
My complaint is not that I expect neutrals to be easy, but I do expect there to be some point in playing them. I presume you mean rites, rather than rights. Here I think they need to overhaul things. The racial rites in particular should be made more in tune with the background to each race. They should also require various levels of fame. As very few rites exist in the game then there should not be an issue. If the scaling is done properly then everyone should get something out of it. I suspect the bigger issue would be if any of the rites requiring a level of fame only available to citizens of that race were to turn out to be a must have.

marct wrote: It is all a choice. You can say it is better to be non-neutral at the moment, and I can say that that is not quite true as any area that is Kami held currently I will not be able to get to and you will be able to get to.

Neutrals will have very few tps available to them that either side does not. They have none in PR (except Nexus), none in zones of 200+, and only a very few in lands below 200. So no I dont think you are correct in saying any area that is Kami held neutrals will be able to get to when you cannot. In addition the distances that neutrals will have to travel will be higher. Non-neutrals will at least have easy access to higher levels, perhaps not the one they would ideally prefer, but access never the less. Within Liberty Lake the only working tp for neutrals is Fairhaven. Not even Dew Drops, which can hardly be described as high level, is available.

For non-neutrals the loss in tps is repayed with content, and potential rewards, in the form of the spires, and so forth. You also have to potential to gain access to areas by removing enemy spires. There is no method by which neutrals can expand what tps they have access to.

There is no indications whatsoever that neutrals will have any benefits from this at all. The proposals put forward during the temple building phase that neutrals join the weaker side were not popular with the majority of neutral players. I don't see that changing with the war. Further there is nothing in the notes provided to indicate that neutrals could do so even if they wanted to.

Neutrals that do PvP should be able to do things against both sides. As things stand if I do anything it either has no impact, or aids one side or the other. I want to be able to rid Atys of both the Karavan and the Kami. I would like to be able to destroy their tps. I want to be able to act as a freedom fighter for Homins not a punchbag.

To me making neutrals "playable" means more than just having a flag on a character so that it is not Karavan or Kami, it means being able to DO things.

In the absence of actually getting something to do, is it really so unreasonable to expect more tps than are being offered, or a more relaxed attitude to neutral guilds. I still haven't heard any explaination of why aligned guilds can take neutral characters but neutral guilds cannot take aligned characters.

It would be nice if the Rangers storyline would get going, hopefully it will before the fame changes come in as Neutrals will have no access to the woods once it does. Unless of course Tryton or the Rangers open up their own tps.

Let me do some corrections.

lathan wrote:As far as faction rites go, I fail to see how a neutral could ever get more than an aligned homin. Iirc neutrals are limited to +50/-50 fame with the factions. That means, if I I have +50 fame with kami, I can do kami rites only, b/c I have -50 fame with karavan, and vice-versa.

Being neutral will (as far as I know) only restrict you to +50, you will still be able to have -100 fame with all factions and cultures.

lathan wrote:If I'm a kami follower I can have +100 kami and -100 karavan, so ok, I still can't do karavan rites, but hey, I can do all kami rites that go between +50 and +100 fame, so at least I'm still better off than a neutral.

You could argue that a neutral could just swap their fame over from one faction to the other, but then so can a faction-aligned homin. The only thing that makes it more difficult is the fact that you may have higher fame with that faction if you're aligned with it than a neutral might have, but then again, maybe you won't.

I think what makes it really difficult are to things:
First: To gain fame with a faction whos members will rather kill you on sight than give a mission to you will be quite a challange.
Since (as mentioned above) being neutral doesn't restrict you from having -100 Karavan or Kami fame (you can still do Kami missions and lose Karavan fame although your Kami fame is at cap and won't rise higher and vice versa) everyone will have the same difficulties in raising the fame with an "enemy" faction.

Second: The other way round. Gainig 100 Fame will be much harder than before because personal fame, guildfame and racial fame will be completely separated (Racial fame integrated in the two others as start values). Untill now these three fames add, so that a member of a guild with 50 fame only needed another 50 personal fame to reach the 100 Global value.

I think many people overlook, that the current Global fame will cease to exist.

And hence I think someone who has aligned himself with a faction and worked for his fame to rise way beyond the +50 border will think twice before he will abandon the earned fame with his faction.


Conclusion: So if you are neutral you will have much less problems to switch fame. In my definition of neutral a neutral player would just do the missions necessary to gain the desired fame value for a rite (or different, not yet known things) and hence his fame with the other factions will never drop below -50 (the KOS threshold). If he's doing more missions than necessary and his fame drops beyond -50 he's not really neutral because he is doing to much for only one side and hence he will have more problems to switch his fame again.

tridman wrote:Conclusion: So if you are neutral you will have much less problems to switch fame. In my definition of neutral a neutral player would just do the missions necessary to gain the desired fame value for a rite (or different, not yet known things) and hence his fame with the other factions will never drop below -50 (the KOS threshold). If he's doing more missions than necessary and his fame drops beyond -50 he's not really neutral because he is doing to much for only one side and hence he will have more problems to switch his fame again.

I agree with most of your comments. I do not agree with your definition of neutral. Someone that did enough for one side or another to gain enough fame to join that side to get rites is not a neutral, particularly if they then did it all again to gain rites of anotherside. The problem is however that until we know what rites will exist. What the requirements are in terms of fame, cult membership, citizenship etc. What the advantages of the various rites are. Then the question is unanswerable as to whether it is either necessary or a good idea to go to all that trouble. Whilst there may be some completist types that want to be able to say they have all the rites, for most players it may well be not worth the bother, whatever their preferences. That goes for neutrals as much as the non-neutrals.