PvP, the devil: or (to P or not to P?)

[lupine04]

Hey thanks!

Nice to get a positive response to a post like that for once.. I'm usually trounced upon harshly by all the pro-ganking and pro-griefing folks.. called a "carebear" and told to go play some PvE "carebear" game if I "can't handle it".. and so on.

But, to me, that's the basic truth of it. It's clear as crystal and plain as day to anyone seeing it in action.

As for Shanree.. hey you can cast eyes at her all you want.. she is sort of a hottie ... for a digital character.

Does saying that make me wierd, at all? :-p

[basicart]

Maybe there should be a option somewhere that ya have to tick a box that says "Yes i want to PvP" before you can enter the PvP zones, since there seems to be some anti PvP players running about these places.

[grimjim]

These are the circumstances that have ruined other games with open or semi-open PvP for me... and I suspect they're what Grimjim is speaking about in his posts... though I could be wrong.

Thanks for that, I've been getting worn down and tired on arguing this point over and over.

[altomesa]

OK, time for me to say something about all this. 1st of all, excellent post Shanree. Well thought out and articulated.

The center of the PvP controvercy for me is not open PvP itself, but griefing. Ganking diggers while they are in full focus gear, on their knees and digging, or a 2 or 3 vs. 1 situation, and then gloating about it aftwards like you've completed some major accomplishment. If you want to kill a digger, at least give them warning, so they can prepare to fight, don't stab them in the back while they are digging. No one like's a griefer but most of us can appreciate a fair fight.

None of us is perfect 100% of the time, most of us have our little quirks and shortfalls. And damn us for allowing our emotions to cloud clear judgements at times. But when your actions fall into the category of "griefing," in the end, everyone loses. The ensueing fallout and overall deterioration of the community it causes (which is painfully obvious if you've been reading the threads lately) isn't worth the 5 seconds of adrenaline rush you get from ganking someone in PR. I understand that you get bored once you have so many 250's under your belt. In our guild, almost every member has multiple 250's, but our focus area's are on daily Q270 boss hunts, tribe commander hunts, specific mat hunts, getting more crafters to 250 and other things that we find enjoyable and help to strenghthen the guild for the future and in the process, bring us closer together. The idea of going to PR just to kill people never occurs to me. Are those the only things to do? No. Am I saying your guild should just do those things? No.

The idea has been suggested that ON member's try to dictate what is/isn't right for others. Once again, it is important to note that these are forums, and as such, forums are here for inidividuals to express their opinions. I have kept largely silent from the majority of these threads because the misunderstandings and accusions tend to get ugly quick, almost no one see's eye to eye, and you can literally see the degredation of the community before your very eyes. I see people I know to be thugs and bullies talking smack, and that's no suprise. I see people I know, like and respect talking smack because they are misunderstanding someone elses opinion for a "this is the way I think things should be and you should think that way too" kind of statement, and I see people I consider close friends talking smack because they are too outspoken for their own good and will defend their beliefs even if it get's them into trouble. Everyone is heated with different ideas and stances on PvP and griefing. It gets uglier by the day, but no resolution or "let's agree to a disagree" to be seen. Just, "I don't like what you said, we declare war on you" kind of jibberish. This is what drives good people away from MMORPG's. Constant childlike bickering that you all must see will have no positive outcome or resolution.

One of the things that sucked me into Ryzom so many months ago was the maturity of the community as compared to other MMORPG's. People willing to go out of their way to help others on a consistant basis. It was a unusually beautiful thing to see. I realize that many of those players are gone, but many have remained (and some are returning) and they are not the same people we knew in months prior. Attitudes have changed, trusts have been broken, feelings have been hurt, bickering is on an upward climb and the community continues to fragment into smaller and smaller pieces, like glass that continues to shatter until it's eventually unrepairable and indistinguishable from it's former self. Seeing the community going in this direction is highly unmotivating for me and sadens me deeply.

Is anyone out there left to help the new players of ryzom, bring them in, give them a home, help then learn the game and be strong and make sure they are having fun, or are all of us vets too busy fighting each other to think about them and the future of the game?

Are we prepared for a major kitin invasion or will we fall to the ground uncoordinated because so many people and guilds have seperated themselves from other's because of disagreements on things that are, in the grand scheme of things, trivial?

My obvious point being that I think we as a community are quickly losing sight of what's important because too many people are thinking emonionally, not logically. What are you're personal goals? What are your goals for your guild? What are you working for for the future? Are you on track to reach those goals? If not, what adjustments can you make to get on track? Where does all this bickering fit in with further advancement of reaching these goeals? Or does it not fit at all?

[larwood]

and I see people I consider close friends talking smack because they are too outspoken for their own good and will defend their beliefs even if it get's them into trouble.

Um.... can anyone tell me who she's referring to in the above quote? LOL (Thom, hint hint)

Well said Saranda. I for one need to work on almost all of the points you mentioned.

/target Saranda
/bow

[lupine04]

Maybe there should be a option somewhere that ya have to tick a box that says "Yes i want to PvP" before you can enter the PvP zones, since there seems to be some anti PvP players running about these places.

The "PvP On" flag idea is something that's actually been implemented in other MMORPGs with certain success.

Personally, I like the idea of having certain "contested areas" where PvP is open. These are usually well-defined areas that are around mid-way between the different homelands of each warring faction. Anarchy Online has a situation something like this.

However.. there's also a way to get from one place to another where you can avoid the free-for-all sections - for those who don't want to PvP and would rather engage in the PvE content. It's feasible in AO to get up to max level (220) without ever fighting another player. But there's also PvP galore for anyone who prefers that.

As for ganking diggers when they're not prepared - that's a great example.. but I think it's conditional on level. If it's clear that they're way too low to put up a fair fight - even if they were in full battle gear - I wouldn't touch them.

I would probably never attack anyone when they're not prepared... but then I'm not an aggressive type player, even in PvP. To me, if I see someone of an opposing faction passing by, I'll just be on my way.. maybe make a gesture or whatever to taunt them a bit.. but I won't attack. If I am attacked however, I will definitely fight back. If I'm defeated, or if I win and it was a fairly matched fight, I'll say "good fight" to them in /tell or whatever and be on my way.

If it's some ganker or griefer who's just going after another easy target, I wouldn't waste the energy typing a response; their action isn't worthy of it and saying anything would only increase their (misplaced) feeling of victory.

I guess you could say I'm for fair play in all situations - even open PvP.

Now.. if it's an all-out war situation and I'm with a small army facing off against another.. of course it's open play and, honestly, I probably wouldn't take the time to find out someone's level before I attacked.. which might mean I'm attacking someone many levels higher or many levels lower. But I figure in that situation, everyone there knows what the risks are... so it doesn't fit into the "ganking" or "griefing" mold...

[bobturke]

Well I dont usually comment on PvP threads because i'm too snobbish and I think its beneath me [j/k mostly], but this is exception.

<superiorsoundinglecture>

I used to be totally against PvP except perhaps in disputed areas someone mentioned above. But i've been reading the PvP threads, especially the ones on other games that are yet to launch, and i'm starting to understand that not everyone who wants PvP necessarily just wants to go around ganking.

As a result i'm starting to come around towards understanding the PvP side. Personally i'd prefer just PvE, but thats not where Ryzom is. I'm not really for open PvP yet but the way its been implimented in Ryzom I don't mind. Its mainly in a PR areas which have limited amounts of top quaility resources.

The way I see it in Ryzom is that if you go into PvP areas you accept the risk that you might be attacked by other players. Now before the trigger words "attacked by other players" sets off any emotive responses think about the worst case scenario. You die. Or worse you die while digging that supreme Oath or whatever your poison is. What happens? You respawn a reasonable distance away in a safe zone. Perhaps you loose access to those supreme mats. Thats it. No DP. No permanent damage. No loss of equipment or dappers. Perhaps you run back to your supreme spot and get killed again. I have to say it but if you run back to the same spot where you just got killed a minute ago and expect a different result you can hardly be called wise.

Now talking smack is another thing altogether, but i'm not getting into that. But my advise is that when you get killed find out why you were killed. You might be able to figure that out for yourself or you might be able to figure it out by saying, "Why the hell did you do that?". The killer will usually be happy to brag about why they did what they did. If the player that killed you starts acting like a 10 year old, talking smack or whatever ignore them and respawn. That's important. Ignore them. Children get bored really quickly when you ignore them and go annoy someone else.

If they say "Those sups belong to ['me'/insert guild name]" then you know what excuse they're using. What you do after that is up to you. Go dig somewhere else, organise your guild/friends and hand their arse to them on a plate, or wait a while and come back and resume digging taking the risk you might go splat again.

Whatever happens when you get killed in PvP you try and be mature about it. Sure retailiate by trying to kill them either by yourself or with your own group of friends, but the worst thing you can do about it IMHO is start whining about it.

PvP isn't about chivalry and fair fights and all that stuff. Thats what dueling and gladiator bouts and the Mantis arena are all about. PvP zones are there for people or groups of people to exert their influnce over other people/guilds and perhaps temporarily "own" resources if they can. Might makes right. Sure people don't have to kill everone they meet on sight and I know they don't. Dragging RL ideals of fairness into it is a waste of time IMHO. IRL how often do you cast magic spells or spend hours cleaving giant insectoids into their component parts? This is fantasy not RL.

Anyway i've prattled on long enough. Remember "You are entering a PvP zone" is not there to entertain you while you wait for the new zone to load and most of all remember, Ryzom is a game.

</superiorsoundinglecture>

Just a quick edit to say I totally agree with Grim's post further up the thread re:RPG (http://www.ryzom.com/forum/showpost.php ... stcount=61)

[grimjim]

I used to be totally against PvP except perhaps in disputed areas someone mentioned above. But i've been reading the PvP threads, especially the ones on other games that are yet to launch, and i'm starting to understand that not everyone who wants PvP necessarily just wants to go around ganking.

What's said on forums, by PvPers often, is not generally how they behave or what happens IN the game. If only half the justifications and so on mooted were true it wouldn't be so bad.

[hans1976]

I used to be
...
<snip>
...
remember, Ryzom is a game.

Turke, why did you had to go out and make the exact same post I was planning on typing somewhere today?

[ilthor]

the worst thing you can do about it IMHO is start whining about it

Whining is IMHO perfectly understandable. It just makes it known, and thats what forums are for, since there is no TV, radio or newspapers ingame. It is another way of retaliation, a public one that i support and encourage. If you check the last "Pvp report" thread, the killer didnt like having their name on the forums... well suits him right. If we all just shut up about it people will go on doing what they please then call who speaks whiners, when they are the offending ones. If people got reasons to do stuff like going after one another they can answer in the forums too, but giving "server fame" imunity to pvp'ers is just wrong, cause here is the only place ingame where we all have the same lvls etc. I'm sorry if you disagree but free-speach is the most important of civic rights, since it allows for all the dirt to come up.

I for one am not into pvp or otherwise go into pvp areas, but if someone kills me WITHOUT reason (some people might have reasons to do so and then its between us) ill sure report that griefing, cause thats what it is, and as a citizen of Atys i have the right to talk.