Ryzom

Ranged is bad enough that I as a crafter refused to take any ranged crafting after patch one repec. It is bad enough that I, a beta tester that played a Tryker gun slinging pirate chick dumped my Tryker AND my guns.

The damage is such that the WORST amp or no amp does more damage than the BEST gun and ammo of the same Q level. I will craft and test this opinion, but at the moment, from ME at least, I will state it as OPINION UNTESTED...gimme a week and I will ATS test a Q150 amp with level 150 spells, Q150 two handed weps, and Q150 ranged of all kinds and post my results in Damage per second...which to MANY players is ALL the counts. Who really GIVES a Yubos tail if I can do 2 bizillion points of damage, but it costs a million dap to make FOUR bullets and I can only get 8 shots off in a minute. If the wep is TOO slow, you don't LIVE to get off shot two and three, forGET shot 8, it would NEVER happen.

My testing for this week will be:
making an amp of the BEST stats I can, casting against the same mob that I will be testing the ranged with. Record results of this.

Making the WORST amp of that Q level I can make or find, casting against the test mob, record results.

Making the BEST two handed sword (aiming at the EE challenge level of 100/100 damage and speed) using standard melee stanza formula available to a level 150 melee against the test mob, record results

Make the WORST possible two handed sword with lowest possible damage and speed, use NO stanzas at all, just swinging sword and using self heals, against the test mob, recording results.

Make the BEST possible...pistol, bow rifle, rifle, launcher and auto launcher. I am sure we all agree that anything less than the best is not necessary for this experiment. Make ALL the proper amounts of ammo for the above weapons (make the money for the three packers that I will park in the Thesos water with all the weapons, amps, armor and ammo on them...poor beasts), use these ranged items with ALL the best stanzas I can find and mix and match against the test mob and record ALL the damage per second results.

I will then post as many links to screenies on my web site, and post my results. You should know that I am HOPING that I am wrong about ranged, and If I DO find any combo of mats that make a ranged item that is HIGH ENOUGH DPS, I will change to ranged.

But...I fully expect to find that ranged DPS is not comparable to even the WORST possible swords/amps/NO amp DPS of the SAME level Mage/Melee. And My MUCH less than humble opinion is...that is just WRONG, there should be ONE kind of ranged that is at least equal DPS to the weakest or better same level different class weapons/skills.

splatula wrote:The level of your weapon is far less important than the level and type of AMMO that you are using.

Note: YOU DO NOT HAVE TO USE q80 AMMO with a q80 Autolauncher.... get some bigger stuff!

NOTE which animals respond more to which ammo.

Is ranged craptastic? Yes. Is it as bad as some of you make it seeem? No.

I did go back and DID see it, and I was agreeing with you.

tetra wrote:if you go back a page or two, you will see a big long argument where I said that your gun could only lower your raw damage per shot and a handful of folks claiming that I was wrong.

I am a realist, in the real world and in game. For me, if something is limited in real life, but possible, it should work in game too.


Short list without my gabbing, for those with short attention spans:

Hand thrown stones, bullets (cheep, not all that damaging or accurate)

Sling shot and bullets/stones (still quite cheep, slightly damaging and can be QUITE accurate)

Bow and arrow (still light weight and rather cheep, but HIGH end arrows with HIGH damage could get into the OUCH range price wise) Very accurate often, VERY light weight, slightly more damage than sling shot, but still less than compound bow.

Compound or cammed bow (a bit heavier, more material required, arrows same as reg bow most of the time but sometimes a tad longer), VERY accurate, much more range possible, not as light as reg bow, but still lighter than most rifles, and damage can be MIND boggling concidering the techonology level.

Pistols of all kinds (from NOT heavy at all to OH MY GOD heavy, ammo from simple low damage to complex and insane damage) this would be in game the standard Mainland low to mid level solo weapon of choice in my mind. Light weight, minimual mat requirements, light weight ammo with HUGE possiblity of customization of effects at the stage of crafting ammo. At low Q numbers...this would be lower damage, but at higher Q levels the damage should almost equal the same level UN amped spell.

Rifles of all kinds (from not really that heavy to UGH where is that cart?! and damage from *long low wistle* not bad mate, to OH MY GOD!) Mat requirements should be a tad more than the pistol, but the ammo and weapon should produce at AVERAGE quality and mats about the same as all other comparable NON ranged weapons currently in game. (the bulk and mat requirements SHOULD go up with the HIGH end damage, if it produces INSANE damage...over the magic melee of the same level, it should be MORE heavy/bulky and should use stamina more and cost more to use IE be a sholder Siege weapon or mounted on a battlement where carrying ammo or weapon would NOT matter and stamina useage would drop sharply). There might EVEN be a seperate form for the "seige rifle/auto rifle" and their ammo.

Siege or mounted Auto artillary/tanks. This SHOULD be a high end option that those guilds/groups/alliances that claim and build up an outpost high enough should be able to quest/mission for. These should require ammounts of materials that would make MOST foragers CRY, their damage should be in the NO WAY range (twice to three times the standard DPS of the same level melee/magic) and their range vary from not too far to WAAAAAAAYYYYY out there, and the area of damage be from two mobs/players to 10 meter circle. This is stuff/skills that ONLY guilds/invasion defenses would want or need, and the requirements of these items should SHOW it.

In real life, in my slightly limited exposure to anything more than small hand guns (.38 and a darenger with special .38 hollow points, my mother had for protection. She took me to a firing range twice and taught me how to aim and fire both. I shot both about ten rounds TOTAL and in girl scout camp I learned to fire a .22 rifle for the "marksman" patch). So...I admit my limited real life knoweldge of ANYTHING heavy, other than what you see on the history channel or other late night cable tv fare.

BUT in my knoweldge the categories of projectile weapons, modern and modernized ancient type is(there are other explosives that I didn't mention since they don't really fit into the ranged idea, like bombs or land mines):

Hand thrown weapons from your basic stone or metal bullet thrown with hand all the way up to the Military hand granade or Moliv cocktail (flaming projectile sorry 'bout the spelling).

Wooden Bow and target arrows up to sharp pointed or barbed "hunting" arrow.

Compound bow and various arrows

sling shot and metal "bullet" (don't under estimate this one, even for personal protection, hitting someone in the butt or leg with a lead pellet WOULD normally encourage them to GET OFF MY PROPERTY and LEAVE ME ALONE, and more than likely NOT kill them). These are anything from a bit of fabric and the old swing it over your head David and the giant style to high tech titanium framed with PVC plastic tubing and interchangable pads and a rather accurate site system depending upon your projectile (and budget I saw this one while shopping for hunting clothing with my mother. )

Pistols of various bullet sizes and varying accuracies. Varying in weight from VERY slight(mom's daranger was light enough to slide into a boot or carry in purse, weight was less than a can of soda) to enough that you would not really want to carry it around in your purse ALL the time (a Magnum gun and enough ammo in a purse would give the average woman a back ache). These should be the same style as in game LOW level pistols, LOW cost, low to high accuracy and low to HIGH damage depending upon your Q number and mats used. Think about the damage a .22 pistol can do compared to the damage a magnum with Hollow point explosive tipped ammo could do (I saw a vidoe of that ammo taking down an oak door and a rather large bit of the wall near it. No one was hurt, but had anyone been there...it wouldn't have been pretty scene).

Hunting rifles for every form of animal life from birds to bull elephants (size wise, NO WAY would I encourage the hunting of a rare species of any kind or size). And in sizes from Cute little BB rifle for the kids to learn proper hunting ettiquet in reasonable safety, with the proper adult supervision etc, to heavy enough you would want to carry it in a Jeep, and would likely rest the barrel on a surface or tripod during firing. (I have seen an elephant gun in a gun show, I would NOT want to carry this puppy.)

Military weapons, hand guns and Automatic rifles/guns of all kinds. These are normally made with accuracy, durablity, ease of care, ease of part replacement, reliablity in mind, sometimes weight and price are taken into account, but NOT always. Military grade is HEAVY, and very VERY leathal...that is the WHOLE point of it. It is also INSANELY expensive to buy and supply ammo for them. ( in game, higher damage seige weapons with higher costs to use? maybe)

There are other weapons that fit in the Military Grade weapons category that I think COULD go in game as well, providing you follow the Karavan fame and do ALOT of missions etc. But I think that they should be SO heavy, and cost SO many mats to use them etc that they are CLEARLY for invasions, outpost defense posts, and war time between guilds or other groups/units of opposite fames/factions etc. These SHOULD have insane mat requirements, limited firing speeds, HUGE damage, possible AOE, spray or scattering effects (built into the ammo I would say) and take a cart or car to move around, and have an ammo bag or box that could be put down to not count against the player using the item, but the range of that player FROM the box should also be limited or they could not access the ammo and would run out quickly.

The real life equivelents to those weapons are...Artillary, tanks, mounted machine guns and military automatic weapons (not as limited as others, not as many mats required, BUT if used UNmounted it should have a HUGE stamina cost, Maybe a special HIGH level stanza to allow a player MORE range from ammo box, and less stamina use during firing of military level weapons and rifles while unmounted.) And of course Tank and most artillary should not even be THOUGHT of as unmounted usable due to recoil.

Just my thoughts on ranged. Whatever happens happens, if enough changes are made...I MIGHT take it up, if not...I won't.

Molotov cocktail........MOLOTOV COCKTAIL!!!!!!!! dammit
Ohhhh.....teh speeling....
<Jumps on hat repeatedly><Eyes Bleed>

sorry couldn't resist

Anyway Tyren the reason guns aren't that powerfull is because the first time a caster gets popped for 1-1.5k a shot from an armored tank that is running around will scream bloody murder.

That dosen't mean I would not like to see guns be more effective
I would like to see things like crippling bullets, stuns, status effects, The skill "Drive by" tm.

I would hate for guns to in any way replace the need for casters or replace ranged damage dealers.

Sigh...

Nice job on the stats guys, I didn't read this page before posting, just page 1 of the thread.

I'd like to see a comparison of Slash/Smash and Pierce Ammo on the same mob type.

Or in other words, I DIDN'T READ THE WHOLE THREAD BEFORE POSTING MY MISINFORMATION. No need to get your panties in a bunch there Tetra, I wasn't accusing you of lying. Sheesh. My comments were based on a couple of days crafting ammo for my bowrifle back in October. Haven't touched ranged since.

Just one more question to satisfy my curiosity. Does it matter if the ammo is basic, fine, choice or supreme?

-Oro

splatula wrote: Just one more question to satisfy my curiosity. Does it matter if the ammo is basic, fine, choice or supreme?

-Oro

Absolutely! Rifle Ammo with all Fine mats is about 90 dam at q50, all Choice is about 110, never made Excellent or Supreme ammo - seemed a waste of mats since Ex & Sup are a bit hard to come by. The damage changes with the shooter's level though, so your milage may vary.

grndzro wrote: I would hate for guns to in any way replace the need for casters or replace ranged damage dealers.

Ranged combat should actually be RANGED!! Mages are not ranged combat in this game, more often than not mages will stand 5m away from the mob so they can nuke as fast as possible without waiting for the missile to fly through the air.

If we could at least use the piddly piddly damage of a rifle to pull a mob from 100m away, ranged would have some minimal amount of use.

I hope when they "fix" ranged... they also take away the ability to run while shooting as well as level using a gun by enchanting it with Poison 5 and killing things for 3k you only hit once with your gun.

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vguerin wrote:I hope when they "fix" ranged... they also take away the ability to run while shooting as well as level using a gun by enchanting it with Poison 5 and killing things for 3k you only hit once with your gun.

Even with the enchantment 'exploit' people still don't level their ranged lol. Think that is a bug that's left over from when the removed gaining magic xp from using enchantments. O'el, it's not the only one.

vguerin wrote:I hope when they "fix" ranged... they also take away the ability to run while shooting as well as level using a gun by enchanting it with Poison 5 and killing things for 3k you only hit once with your gun.

Or maybe they could make it so you could put enchantments on other weapons like amps and swords instead of just rifles and such like now. Oh wait... you can put enchantments on any weapon or amp. You could even, you know... put an nuke enchantment on an amp and take advantage of the +elemental damage part even! Oh my..

But your right, we really need to worry about folks putting nukes on their ranged weapons. After all the base damage for casting without an amp is so uber at poison 5, that someone could do 675 damage. I mean sure a mage casting that same spell would be doing somewhere around 2000-2500+ once you consider that they would cast doubles with an amp... but oh my, someone doing 675 damage with a nuke on a rifle is pretty damn unbalancing! I mean for a mere 225 credits worth of enchantment, someone could take say... a QL110 rifle and do about the same damage as three full shots of choice ammo of damage (basically maxed dmg for ammo)! But hey, I can see why that would be considered unfair... after all, a mage who was actually at level 125 would be casting for around 1200-1600 or so depending on their amp. The numbers make the problem stupidly obvious, I can't believe that I didn't see it until now thanks to DT pointing out how ranged weapons should be nerfed like someone else once did... It's obvious that something is wrong with magic not being powerful enough! How dare Nevrax not think about the poor mages when they made those pathetic and useless spells. It's so unfair that a mage would only wind up doing only 500-700% more damage than a ranged fighter at roughly the same level when they are casting poison 1 with their amp.

That whole "maybe you will be quiet if I suggest they should nerf x y and z" angle only works when the skill you are suggesting a nerf for... is actually viable. Because when you suggest that a worthless and pretty much nonviable skill like ranged be nerfed you just look like a moron.