Ryzom

hooray for going offtopic into a totally different and very interesting topic \o/


the point of the arguments, Acri, is to reminisce about Ryzom because we want in dammit >< lol GET THE SERVERS UP ALREADY! \o/

kuroari wrote:hooray for going offtopic into a totally different and very interesting topic \o/


the point of the arguments, Acri, is to reminisce about Ryzom because we want in dammit >< lol GET THE SERVERS UP ALREADY! \o/

OOkay... I did not think that fa(a)r... *LOL*

CU
Acridiel

acridiel wrote:you´ve always got several options

Oh, definitely, this should be a developer mantra

acridiel wrote:But people are always willing to find that ONE spell Sidusar, so there´ll be still no real change

*sigh* I know I know. I'm not expecting a revolution in the combat system, I just think it'd be an easy-to-implement change that would make PvE a -little- more interesting, without fundamentally changing anything.

I fail to see what´s more interesting about that....

acridiel wrote:I[...]
Anyway, some of what you say in your post above might well be true but one thing bugs me enormously.

Your hanging ALL your examples on the bosses.

Sorry, but someone who´s out to solo a boss has in my opinion gotten nothing about Ryzom right.

Hmm where did I say one should hunt bosses solo?
I am hanging all examples on bosses because I see no reason in hunting other mobs (well maybe I have one too many masters, better not mention them

What mobs do you hunt for pleasure actually? I am quite curious to see. Personally I am not happy to hunt mobs at all to be very very honest, except from the cases when their loot is useful. Loot useful creates me the illusion I am less of a killer, maybe it's a bit childish but still my way.

Kill 5 tyranchas, they go the same, kill 5 shalahs they go the same, kinchers (when in numbers, if correctly pulled it's a bore) and jugs are the few that give somewhat different behaviour.

acridiel wrote: Ryzom isn´t a Solo Game and should never become one.
Soloing IS damed hard and it should stay that way.

Honestly I know one or two players who soloed Ryzom most of the part in pve and had tremendous fun out of it. But I was never talking about soloing. Can you please give me the quote about it? As English is not my native, I might have done some mistakes.
And even more honestly those people who were stubborn enough to solo Ryzom are with no exception people who know the game extremely well, real old heroes.

acridiel wrote: You didn´t say so, but many sadly do, because they don´t see the many, many things that are possible to do with the stanzas.

Acri, one more time: I do _not_ argue that stanzas are useless, I argue that stanzas are not reinforced by game play enough, ok? ))
If you want to prove me that stanzas are good, challenging and whatever, you're selling wood to the forester. ,)

acridiel wrote: Sadly many people do not want to really "learn something new" from a game.
They just see "max. dmg. = max.fast XP" Whohooo I RoXXoR. *bleh*
Sadly those are players who LOVE the Crystals because they can zoom even faster in on levels to top, yeay... 250 in two month I RUL3Z! *blah*
This type of player doesn´t give fart about what the stanzas might or might not do. He doesn´t care that he could be a "better fighter" with this, als long as nobody shows him by beating him in a fair fight

I am not interested at all in this kind of player. Their money do not belong to Ryzom same as they didn't belong to old SWG. In Ryzom is cats, in SWG was character commerce over e-bay.

When I am discussing about fine tunning the game I am thinking of a "middle class", not oldies, vets or whatever you want to name them (and ... entre nous... on this forums we have only vets because there is no game for the others ) - and not talking about l33t mass of kids either (these won't be here as long as Ryzom is Ryzom - I tried to prove else where that it doesn't even depend on the wish of the company to change the game, simply they don't belong here).

acridiel wrote: And even to say, every last player wants to fight bosses the fastest and less challenging way is an even greater one.

That's precisely what I ment, maybe I considered too many things already known to repeat. Bosses were hunt by small ganks of people knowing "the drill" after each reset. Bosses didn't put any problems anymore, they became easy prey and boring hunt, still useful for mats. That's the reality about the last year of Ryzom, we shouldn't pretend we don't know it only because we play Ryzom otherwise. And one reason for this is that bosses sensibility to certain types of damage (but other reasons as well) was not reinforced in game play.

acridiel wrote: I´m by no means what you revere to as a "Hero" or "Hardcore player". I might even get a little offended at that.
We do it because we like it that way. I´ve got over 230 Nukes too, but hell I use them in "self defense" to get something down I can´t get down with a sword. Or I use them in a team when asked to.
I don´t go about exclaiming: Hey look I can shoot lightning from my arse I´m in ur citiz pwning ur guardz!

Not sure what you mean here and to whom you compare yourself

acridiel wrote: I´m just a player who enjoys the game, just a little way different that you.
And sorry to say so, you seem to think, at least thats what I guess from you posts, that your way of playing is the the only real one.
Wake up. Or please correct me if I´m wrong in the assumption.

Dear Acridiel, yeah you're pretty wrong. First and foremost I am discussing a suposed player base for this game. When I'll discuss my own style of playing I'll make sure to underline it's mine ,)

Ryzom has to be sustainable for a player base, not for a l33t mass, not for 75-100 devoted 3(me)-5(you) years players. Can we not discuss the game from an average perspective? Objectively, without implying our personal way of playing.

I have not the slightiest idea why you seem to believe I am asking an easier Ryzom while I am doing completely the opposite to this. It has to be complex and it has to not give up to the easy way.

Why do you think that not getting satisfactory results using basic stanzas in melee/electrowhatever nuke in magic leads to making the game easier?

acridiel wrote: Of course some things could use improvement, but please take a moment to consider other players that might not be out to get everything in the fastest way possible.

People in Ryzom by definition won't be out to get everything as fast as possible, a majority that is. Again I don't see why you asume I am only talking about l33t people. What your logic wants to ignore though is the middle player who won't stay years without a master and won't get master nuke in a week either.
I asume a large number of players will not be at their first MMORPG. I asume a large number of players will fumble little in the UI and in the lower levels (mainly if a tough number of vets will be there to craft for them best stuff, give them tens of q50 cats and trek them wherever they want like it did actually happen for the last three years in Ryzom as fact).
These guys aren't l33t WoW players, but they do leave in 3-4 months after hunts become same again and they cannot be done when a team of friends wants it, but at precise dates and hours that boss mats collectors know by heart. That's fact.

acridiel wrote: On things going unappreciated by players who don´t want to do them...
Someone who does not WANT to look at the stanzas can not and should not be forced to do it.
Alright, he´ll be "forced" to do it, once he notices that he´s not the sharpest knife in the battle and somebody tells him to try "stanza XY".
But you can´t just change the game mechanics to "force" the player to "learn what he must learn". And I mean the player, not the character.

If I didn't live the SWG experience I would have been tempted to believe you. But I've seen what happens when skills in game are fine tuned. It happens that a majority of players learn their profession. It also happens that a minority of players bring this profession to perfection and then the word "vet" sense doesn't mean just that you payed sub for x years, but that you learnt the environment in a special way.
It's unreasonable to judge player psychology in terms of 1 and 0 like that. The big Gauss bell comprises people who _on their own_ will go the straight line to the target, but if the line has to be sinous they will enjoy themselves in discovering it.
On a side note, trust me, most of us would have never learnt to write if parents wouldn't persuade/force us to.

acridiel wrote: Games like WoW do "force" you to learn what you have to, because you really, really, need to be in peak condition to do anything considered "real play". I´m sorry but I said it before and will do so again:
I don´t want Ryzom to become another WoW.
Just consider again.
Games like WoW "force" your Character to learn the next skill available to him, by offering a minimum of choice to you if new skills are available. So sooner or later, everyone´s the same. Apart from some minor quirks in Equipment and one of the three or so variations on the Class.
Hey... great....

That's because we are comparing a level based game with a skill based game. Maybe we are not doing the right comparison here.
The offer in Ryzom goes over a huge range. You can do several things in several ways. You can save stamina using like 4-5 ways to build a stanza if I remember correctly, for one and same hit.
That's correct, and you would change the depth of the game if you reduce this. But it was never intended to kill an animal with any of the 4 magic a nuker has and never bother to even look in the stanzas management for that.
Cmon get some nuance when you oppose the idea of making more useful the complexity itself the game already has.

You seem to find no way between the old Ryzom and WoW. Honestly... you are convinced there is nothing in between them?

acridiel wrote: For you fighting may be " a useful digging supplement skill", but for some it is THE SKILL that gives them FUN.
With all the different stanzas to explore and try it´s a bit like digging.
Just not as linear as digging.
Which it is, if you really think about it.

Well, I beg to differ here a little. If you consider digging stanzas "linear" this tells me quite a lot about how much fun you had digging Have you used the stanzas the rites added to the levelling pool?How many stanzas did you use for one dig, just of curiosity?

I understand you enjoyed only fighting and I respect that, personally in Ryzom I enjoyed everything except ranged. However I did enjoyed fighting in SWG, in Ryzom I have always sighted at the memories and felt betrayed at the not used complexity that was there implemented.

acridiel wrote: (Ouh, I´m starting to really get annoyed, re-reading your post, trying to calm down now a little, sorry....)

Yes, I can feel that, and I am half amazed half amused at the way you're reading me, a lot of times reading what I did not say or even interpreting inversely what I've said. For example here:

acridiel wrote: Just as you said a clever Nuker doesn´t run out of sap, the same goes for a Meleer. What´s the problem with that? Why can´t it just be so?

What about re-reading my paragraph and see if I said that or something quuuuite different.

acridiel wrote: I don´t get why you have to contradict everything NB said.
Just for contradictions sake?
Why is this suddenly an argument Melee vs Nuke?
It´s all part of the Game!
It´s just that some things might need a little more tweaking than others.
What to tweak, we could, and indeed so seem to, fill volumes going on and on about.

Well, I believe that defending your ideas and bringing arguments worth doing. And every discussion worth doing as long as it doesn't become personal. Criticising the game may help find those spots where it needs fine tunning, mainly if we argument this with what we have seen in game happening for years. It's nothing agains NB, we know each other for ages and probably he was amused at some of your asumptions about me in this post.
I might be old fashioned, but I do trust that debating points of view is fruitful. Also it can be proved that my post agreed in several points with NB's...

acridiel wrote: How long it takes to get any master doesn´t matter either, as long as you enjoy what you´re doing. And again, if you just do it to get to 250 and feel like you´ve got the biggest balls of all, you´re in the wrong game. I think we can agree about that. You don´t seem to be the type of player to do this to me. You´re enjoying the game for different reasons.

Hell, even someone who DOES play to get Über in all Skills has his own way of fun and its granted to him. Only he´ll run out of it before too long and then leave. I won´t shed a tear but as long as he´s had his fun its OK by me.

And, seriously, if MOBs would really just be damageable by ONE SPELL alone...
Well, where would the fun be?
People would learn what spell it is, use it and -puff- get booored.

The mobs _are_ right now damageable by one spell alone, any of the superior ones that is. That was my point
If you want to discuss how you enjoy the game played for yourself, and I'll add how I enjoy the game for myself first this wouldn't help the thread as it was defined in the title at all and secondly we'll just find we enjoy same stuff.

acridiel wrote: Notice any difference to how its done now?
I don´t.
It doesn´t matter at all what spell you use on whatever MOB/Boss/ or player, because as long as it does at least some dmg. you feel like you´re contributing something.

It matters on players because of their jewelry... in duels it can be seen easily.

acridiel wrote: If for example Kipuketh could be hurt ONLY and exclusively by a spell combination of Fire and Ice, you´d not only automatically exclude all players that do not have the Fire spell yet, you´d seriously degrade the fun factor in getting the boss by it.
Because it would be "hit the x/y key" over and over and over and over and over... for everyone involved...
Now, where´s the fun in that?

You truly believe nukers under level 120 should play with Kipuketh? O_O

acridiel wrote: Sorry, I´m really trying to stay calm and focused on a normal discussion here and if I may sound a bit annoyed it may just be the case, but please don´t take any real offense from it and try to understand my point of view.

Well I just did, not so easy but again you didn't live with us, you have by no means any obligation to know Faa, her evolution or her professional knowledge.

I agree that the game shoudln't be made mechanical. If you change mobs to respond only to one damage type probably it will go as you say. But as it is, most mobs contradict the huge variation of possible skills that are out there. What I want is make them same complex as the skills we can use against them, not simplify. More than that I wish they have more complex behaviour during fight, which will parallel their behaviour outside of combat, one of the RYzom greatest assets.

If the discussion is to be useful to anything then it has to be outside of our own play style and based on what we have noticed in a majority around us. As long as NB and you are judging things only based on your style it's a partial discussion saying in essence only one thing: let ryzom exactly how it is, don't change a byte and everything will be well. I could say more or less the same. If you take into consideration only Faa's life, let Ryzom run exactly how it was, and she'll play happily ever after. Are we sure this is our problem now?

Oh, and don't worry about the vet denomination, Faa is not so young in the game as to have any biases.

P.S. This post wouldn't have been so long had I seen the continuation of the thread. But I've seen only Acridiel's posting and started to answer. As it was longish RL called so I found it when I cam eback home, continued it and posted without checking a sum of things have been already clarified. Sorry for this.

pfft, *totally feels left out*

Acri's an attention thief! i was fighting with Faa first, no fair

You all are getting too worked up over a fun debate about which style is more efficient who gives two ****?

You gotta like.. chill out, maaaaaannnnnnn............


(sorry for the language, but im sure boro'll fix it later )

Edit:: ooh OOOH!! Number _ONE_ use for nuking.

All those precious Izams just next to the stables in pyr? Yea.. BARBECUE!!!!!! NOTHING is more fun than wiping out dozens and dozens of SPAWNS of izams (and the poor yubos and capryni that get in the way) with fire-bomb-nukes. NOTHING.

Nightblade wrote:All those precious Izams just next to the stables in pyr? Yea.. BARBECUE!!!!!! NOTHING is more fun than wiping out dozens and dozens of SPAWNS of izams (and the poor yubos and capryni that get in the way) with fire-bomb-nukes. NOTHING.

*was a witness to those BBQ frenzies where Nightblade fed me with freshly roasted Isam wings* Yum !

everyone wants its own fun =) work of devs to make it fun for target audience

In fact I see your khm "conversation" is whether about "will complexity bring complexity", i'd like to see no complexity, but variations, in situations like arcidel describes with high resistances i think it will become the complexity of WoW when u have dozens of whatever combinations of talents spells and etc but always some and in most cases only one choise is effective most of others are useless - i don't want this in ryzom, it will be complex but it will force players to do smth what is "intended to" without choises =)

The complexity need in how u can use skills not in how u should use em, best example here is digging imho - lots of stanzas where u can use one action forever or u can learn to use more actions more efficient or u can find own combinations for same old digging - it can be fast or not fast but there's choises to do it different ways

Anyway as in any model ppl will found "most effective" ways to do anything - it's the fact, what i want that there must be not only one way - it must be like function with some or many local extremums where each extremum is unique way to do smth and values of that extremums is not highly different.

geez some epic posts here, I feel the need to actually read them and begin to troll, there has gotta be a crapton of things I disagree with, be back in a few hours people

dakhound wrote:geez some epic posts here, I feel the need to actually read them and begin to troll, there has gotta be a crapton of things I disagree with, be back in a few hours people

So true! I also regret not having read them in depth, so now I cannot chime in and disagree or agree! (some would say sound like a smart*** j/k ). I should read the posts too let me see if I can sneak in a few minutes