Community, what community?

[arfindel]

It is interesting, the views that a non-factioned person finds, trying to push through all the mess of threads that are full of nothing but child-like bickering.

One person said the Kami do things different than the Karavan. Then (My underline) the Kami shouldn't complain about imbalance, or the Karavan being a more aggressive force.

Sorry, but that "then" induces the idea there is a conclusion. If you eat rotten eggs then don't be worried to have a stomach problem.
Your "then" thought doesn't cover any logical conclusion.

Unless you can prove that "doing things differently" always leads to a disbalance.

People most often "do things differently" and this doesn't necessarily lead to a disbalance. Doing things differently leads to differences, that's all about it. All dicussion following can be framed as what differences and in which context.

So all the rest goes on a logically (intended or not) wrong premise.

But the premise itself, taken separatedly means:
kamis do things differently therefore(?) produce a disbalance
therefore we admit there is a disbalance
- with side note kamis are producers of the disbalance are forbidden to complain about it

Now I know you had problems with the radical part of the kami faction. I also know you had problems with the radical part of the kara faction as well.
Karas have most OPs therefore kamis will attack more often (game mechanics makes impossible to attack someone who has nothign to attack , right?
Kamis attack more often, you - having defensive contracts with most guilds on both sides defend kara most often.
Therefore: kamis complain more, kara radicals are shushed more.
If the Kamis had more OPs was vice versa.

But there isn't any implication from here that you should use the rethorics of above just because kami radicals attacked you. At a deeper view, or simply consulting the history of neutrals after Ops implementation, the neutral life is the hardest on Atys, and for the radicals they will always be suspect. You know very well I am not a radical - more than that you know very well main kami guilds didn't support what you're calling "LARGE majority". The large majority ran to help you when Dragonblades guild split, excluding TS btw, because we want to know first the people whom we ally with, not blindly do treaties.

If you prefer kamis to be the creators of the disbalance, so be it, though. I could've just shut up, as I'm not interested to discuss a lot the community. It's obvious it's changed but overall have my good and respected friends, most of them, with me and i trust in self healing of communities. I thought though I should write this answer just in case you treated yours emotionally and were not aware of the of logics/rhetorics and ultimatedly meaning swing you've done.

[bf649ztp]

The game and community, is still cool for me, although I wasn't here at the very beginning. Some relationships ingame have been, lets say stretched, but generally people around have still got the manners, helpfullness, that has kept me here for so long. These forums have always sucked, and have been packed full of bickering, from the start. If not OP, faction arguments, then arguments about PR killing or boss kill stealing. I try to stay away from here as much as poss, hence my low post count and lack of sig. I'll play here until i'm bored and have levelled all I want to, but a few arguments between some noisy people wont make me upset enough to do anything drastic.

Kodel.

[jennaelf]

Faa, I don't think that I was meaning what you took my statement to say. Or maybe I said it in a way I didn't quite mean.

As I understood the original statement it was that the Kami were not as successful because they did not do things the same way as the Karavan (which, to me, implied that the Karavan were doing something 'more effective'). If it were the other way around, even given my personal experiences, I would still say...

Perhaps a better phrasing is:

"If you see a more effective way something is being done and choose not to use it, then you should not necessarily complain at its use or your lack of results." ?

And in a way - I do have trouble with someone 'creating a disbalance' and following up by complaining about the disbalance. It seems very unproductive (maybe even counter productive)?

"I refuse to rinse my dishes after washing them, like you do! ... I hate that my food always tastes like soap, but yours doesn't!" (typo'd the crap out of that the first time)

I would never say someone can't complain about things - but I don't like hearing complaints about choices that have been made willfully on the part of the one complaining (be that in Ryzom or in real life).

I may have just made it more confusing.


And I say "large majority" because it's the majority of those that make themselves seen. I freely admit that since I'm not in either Faction, I very likely see only a small part.

I have plenty of Kamist friends (I think, anyway), but I don't know if any of them are involved with the Alliance since I don't concern myself with that aspect if I can help it. You know I adore you, Faa. And TS has always been great. Very stalwart and very forward. I suppose my more recent experiences have been mostly on the bad side of things, though.

[killgore]

*Waves to Snake*. I think for our community to survive the elder members must try and teach new players our ways.-Kil

[iceaxe68]

As a pretty new face around here, I won't comment on any changes. How would I know?

I can say this, though. "Winning", being number 1, etc. feels really good, for the 30 seconds that it lasts. In the long run the quality of the time you spent, the amount you grew through the experience, the friends you made, and the things you learned are not only far more valuable, but indeed far more enjoyable.

Winning is over immediately. The others you carry with you for the rest of your life. And those things can be and should be just as true for 2nd place through last place as they are for the "victor".

Now, I do realize that the ability to really understand and believe the truth of my statements requires a certain amount of experience, and that for some of the players here that experience is only now being lived. You have my support as you find these things out for yourself, and I will not disrespect any of the steps along the path. I do ask, though, that you extend the same courtesy to others as they find their own way in their own time.

The community of Ryzom is exactly and only what we, the participants, make it. It will be what we choose or allow it to be. If you desire it to be more courteous, then be courteous. No matter what anyone else does. Actions, you will find, are far more effective than mere words.

Once upon a time I played a game which involved a fierce level of competitiveness. Physical pain and even bloodshed were normal occurrences, even expected and welcomed. I am not referring to virtual bloodshed here, but real live blood and the occasional broken bone or torn joint. Nonetheless, the firm tradition of the game held that after the mayhem ceased, the two opposing sides would join together in merrymaking and even mayhem of another sort. The outcome of the game had no bearing on the enjoyment of the post-game festivities, unless someone had truly stepped beyond the realm of fair play. That fact alone discouraged foul play to such an extent that I can only recall a single instance of such.

Perhaps some portion of that ethos can be brought to bear on this situation. Can we find a way to bring the sides together after battles in a non-competitive social or cooperative activity? It may be a bit of challenge to keep it within the realm of the Saga, but perhaps it may be done. Joint Kitin hunts? Neutral ground parties? I'm just brainstorming here, perhaps others have ideas.

I think that everyone, even the hardcore PvP crowd, would benefit from a more supportive and courteous atmosphere. Keeping IC and OOC properly separated would be a fine start.

I fear I may have rambled on a bit, but please forgive the vagaries of a wise old homin. Or at least old.

[iceaxe68]

postscript to my own post:

I have never been insulted or even snubbed by ANYONE in game. I'm just taking it on faith that such things occur.

So far, my experience has been entirely positive, aside from empathizing with those who seem so sad here. Anything I can do to make even one person feel better is worth my time and effort.

So, cheers all!

[tydamus]

OK guys, this thread has lost its purpose and is no longer constructive. All good points seem to have been exhausted some time ago.

For the benefit of everyone, this thread is now locked.

Regards,