Ryzom

What i think is daft is people saying they dont agree with PvP, arent the Kami and KA at war? so doesnt killing each other keep the war 'alive' so why not have titles to say how good you actually are at PvP so people can distinguish between people on the battlefield.

A PvP ranking system is very nice. Wait till spires, maybe something like this will be implemented, because doesnt spires encourage more PvP and more keeping the story of battle alive.

danlufan wrote:What i think is daft is people saying they dont agree with PvP, arent the Kami and KA at war? so doesnt killing each other keep the war 'alive' so why not have titles to say how good you actually are at PvP so people can distinguish between people on the battlefield.

.

Well you just hit the nail on the head there...The 'daft' arguement/points raised are the views of people who are concerned Ryzom will become PvP Dominant. The titles are not a contentious issue...The gamestyle titles encourage is what I dislike.

danlufan wrote:What i think is daft is people saying they dont agree with PvP, arent the Kami and KA at war? so doesnt killing each other keep the war 'alive' so why not have titles to say how good you actually are at PvP so people can distinguish between people on the battlefield.

A PvP ranking system is very nice. Wait till spires, maybe something like this will be implemented, because doesnt spires encourage more PvP and more keeping the story of battle alive.

I go on about this a lot, but I'll bulletpoint it.

1. Roleplaying games are not and should not be competetive IMO. You lose the essence of what RPGs are when you set people at each other's throats. RP gets lost in the desire by people to be the best, to outstrip and to harm each other.
2. Conflict destroys community. Community is one of, perhaps, three things that Ryzom has head and shoulders over its competition. Placing that community at risk is like betting all your chips on a single number at roulette.
3. From launch until EP2 the Kami/Karavan conflict was very much an ideological conflict and not so much a physical one. Any physical conflict there was was by distant proxy. The game as sold and presented then, as attested to by others, seemed to be about emerging in a post-disaster world and rebuilding. Not, primarily, about the conflict between the two religions/ideologies.
4. Despite everything that HAS happened the Kami and Karavan aren't yet at war. They exist, still, in a sort of stalemate and if they do fight it is via their proxies. Remember the only faction Vs faction battle we've actually had has been the Temples. Outposts were never meant to be FvF and mechanically aren't FvF they've just turned into that largely through player action but also through a retasking of the lore and ideas surrounding them.

With specific reference to a PvP ranking system this encourages one-upmanship, ganking, exploitation and further sours the atmosphere and community by giving people gloating rights over each other, as discussed here.

grimjim wrote:I go on about this a lot, but I'll bulletpoint it.

1. Roleplaying games are not and should not be competetive IMO. You lose the essence of what RPGs are when you set people at each other's throats. RP gets lost in the desire by people to be the best, to outstrip and to harm each other.
2. Conflict destroys community. Community is one of, perhaps, three things that Ryzom has head and shoulders over its competition. Placing that community at risk is like betting all your chips on a single number at roulette.



With specific reference to a PvP ranking system this encourages one-upmanship, ganking, exploitation and further sours the atmosphere and community by giving people gloating rights over each other, as discussed here.

Ive said it before and il say it again. THERE IS POSIBLE TO CREATE A SYSTEM THAT DOESNT GIVE YOU POINTS FOR GANKING!!!!
So what if one upmanship as you call it is created?
Do you not know who is the good pvpers atm and who is not anyways?
Are you afraid that they will get something you wont? is that what this is about?

Competition doesnt break a community, competition makes things grow. Makes people evolve.

And that is proved by nature for eons. So dont even try to argue on it.
The nature of the world itself agrees with that.

Neither does conflict. Conflic can only harm if you let yourself be harmed by it. Your words say that you will let anyone harm you.
PvP wont harm you unless you put on your faction pvp tag. And at that point. THAT IS THE WHOLE IDEA.
Jyudas.. Do you put your pvp tag on because you think it looks nice?

tigrus wrote:Ive said it before and il say it again. THERE IS POSIBLE TO CREATE A SYSTEM THAT DOESNT GIVE YOU POINTS FOR GANKING!!!!
So what if one upmanship as you call it is created?
Do you not know who is the good pvpers atm and who is not anyways?
Are you afraid that they will get something you wont? is that what this is about?

Competition doesnt break a community, competition makes things grow. Makes people evolve.

And that is proved by nature for eons. So dont even try to argue on it.
The nature of the world itself agrees with that.

Neither does conflict. Conflic can only harm if you let yourself be harmed by it. Your words say that you will let anyone harm you.
PvP wont harm you unless you put on your faction pvp tag. And at that point. THAT IS THE WHOLE IDEA.
Jyudas.. Do you put your pvp tag on because you think it looks nice?

I dont think jy is worried about missing out on things because he doesnt PvP, I think he's more worried things that exist now will be ruined by PvP. The emergence of a PvP centric game is in his opinion detrimental to the potential to RP (see RF online for null RP).

My opinion on this is there is a balance between the 2 somewhere but its not found easily or easily agreed upon. Increasing the amount of PvP related content may tip that balance.

tigrus wrote:

Competition doesnt break a community, competition makes things grow. Makes people evolve.
And that is proved by nature for eons. So dont even try to argue on it.
The nature of the world itself agrees with that.

Neither does conflict. Conflic can only harm if you let yourself be harmed by it.

I am finding your ignorance of the world difficult to comprehend.
It is CONFLICT that mankind has made the larges advances in technology through history (but that is a subject that needs more than this thread to cover ).....and CONFLICT is somethng that you do not always have control of,
ERGO - CONFLICT CAN HARM YOU EVEN IF YOU DO NOT WANT IT TO.


edit - largest advances in technology

tigrus wrote:Are you afraid that they will get something you wont? is that what this is about?

No.
It is fear of losing something we still, somewhat, have. A relatively mature and helpful community that is something of a haven from the attitude prevalent in a lot of the other MMORPGs. That's a precious thing worth defending.

tigrus wrote:Competition doesnt break a community, competition makes things grow. Makes people evolve.

Oh dear.
Evolution isn't necessarily progress. It is simply change. Change can be either good, or bad. The majority of mutations are bad and get weeded out of the genepool by the ruthless effect of natural selection. Applying Darwinian principles in business, politics or the social arena without fully understanding the complexity of those principles is to invite disaster. The competition model so beloved of many is a desperately simplistic and ruthless one that fails to understand the import and power of the cooperative model. Indeed cooperation IS an evolved trait in social creatures from wolfpacks and monkey troupes to bees, ants and humans.

That's straying off the point though, which is competition is not always good and the successful ancestor of all RPGs, computer or otherwise, is based on the cooperative model with shared skills leading to the overcoming of challenges. This is something that I think the makers of most MMOs have forgotten, or botched when they have tried to implement it.

tigrus wrote:And that is proved by nature for eons. So dont even try to argue on it. The nature of the world itself agrees with that.

If we choose to regard ourselves as the most successful species on the planet then, no. Cooperation is what has been proven to be the most effective. Working together for common goals and using interconnected abilities and skills together so that the whole can accomplish more than the sum of the parts.

tigrus wrote:Neither does conflict. Conflic can only harm if you let yourself be harmed by it. Your words say that you will let anyone harm you. PvP wont harm you unless you put on your faction pvp tag. And at that point. THAT IS THE WHOLE IDEA. Jyudas.. Do you put your pvp tag on because you think it looks nice?

Sure it can harm me. By dragging down the community to the level of 'pwning' and 'n00b' and smacktalking it will negatively affect my game. Balancing PvP is a hefty task in any MMO and will leach away developer time from other issues that are far more important to me (I'm just trying to illustrate a point here), if PvP exclusive content, such as the OPs comes in then I'm forcibly excluded from it without making big sacrifices in order to gain access to it, or am forced into a second-class citizen role, begging for the leavings of the PvP players.

Just because I can't, necessarily, be directly killed by a PKer doesn't mean that my game experience isn't adversely affected. There are ways to minimise or control that impact to an acceptable level but I don't think those methods are likely to be used.

When I PvP it is only over OP battles in my role as a mercenary. IC I take part because Jyudas' idealism has been worn down and he has become more cynical of everything on Atys outside his guild family and friends. As the Kami have been the ones mostly hiring him he can justify to himself that he is fighting for some sort of balance. OOC I take part because I need access to crystals to render the pain of levelling armour craft somewhat more endurable and this way we can earn them, I also take part because OOC I see the need for a balance between the factions and I can contribute towards that, even though I would work for the Kara (and have) when they have paid up.

Not belonging to a faction I can't, and wouldn't in any case, put the general tag on.

dakhound wrote:I dont think jy is worried about missing out on things because he doesnt PvP, I think he's more worried things that exist now will be ruined by PvP. The emergence of a PvP centric game is in his opinion detrimental to the potential to RP (see RF online for null RP).

My opinion on this is there is a balance between the 2 somewhere but its not found easily or easily agreed upon. Increasing the amount of PvP related content may tip that balance.

Pretty much right.
You would think that PvP would expand RP options, the ability to play a bad guy, the ability to take the position of a side, have rivals and play out the conflict between them. On paper it sounds like that's a great thing that could happen but, I'd guess, about 99% of the time it jus doesn't happen that way. Winning becomes all and that means playing the numbers game, going exclusively for the most powerful character builds, powerlevelling, finding exploits, gank squads, bruised egos, smacktalking and all the other negative behaviour we see in so many places.

I am not, in principle, against PvP but it is my belief that it is immensely damaging to the MM and RP letters of MMORPG, both community (MM) and roleplay (RP) parts. It doesn't necessarily have to be that way but you need to have a divider between the two main communities since their goals are (99% of the time) at odds with each other. In larger games that comes through servers. In smaller games where the communiteis have to mix it needs to be addressed through mechanics and equal opportnities. Something hopefully being addressed with Ring and Kitin Lair.

grimjim wrote: If we choose to regard ourselves as the most successful species on the planet then, no. Cooperation is what has been proven to be the most effective. Working together for common goals and using interconnected abilities and skills together so that the whole can accomplish more than the sum of the parts.

.

Most of what you just posted i actually agree with alot.
And yes, i do see alot more of your case in this now.
I dont necesarrily agree with the statement that more pvp will encourage to smacktalk and such. But though that is a statement that can be discussed.
In ryzom. No i dont believe that will happen.
In WoW? Definately will.
Swg, yupp you are 100% correct.
Roma-Victor? 99% incorrect.

Anyways.
The comment that i quoted i disagree with on a DEEP level.
What has brough mankind forward at least the last say 2000 (maybe around 4000) years is not cooperation.
It has mainly been one group of people working to get better then, or suppress another group of people. Yes groups work together. But the people that REALLY brought things forward did it to get better, stronger and more powerfull then others.

If thats a good or bad thing isnt my place to say. But i believe there is a reason for those people. Tyrants or not.
That is also why i am a capitalist in the real world.
My personal thoughts of communism and Socialism is that it is the perfect idea. Its the dream world.
Marx was a great man. A thinker.
But there is ONE FUNDAMENTALLY wrong thing about his thoughts and ideas.
Mankind. The human being makes socialism and communism impossible to work for a longer period of time.
You need to find a balance.

Same with competition. It drives us forward. But you can get to much of it.
I tend to vary alot on that. On some things, i am the extreme outer point of competition attitude. The kind of guy that will ALWAYS try to be best.
But on the other hand. I have so strong personal feelings on honor, that i can never end up cheating to be the best.
In a discussion i will try to make my point.
But i also respect your points, and the others ALOT.

If I have seemed disrespectfull in this thread i appologise. That has not been my intention in this thread.

My point was merely to try to maybe give those of us who loves pvp, a little shiny reward for it. One that was not gamebreaking.

tigrus wrote:Most of what you just posted i actually agree with alot.
And yes, i do see alot more of your case in this now.
I dont necesarrily agree with the statement that more pvp will encourage to smacktalk and such. But though that is a statement that can be discussed.
In ryzom. No i dont believe that will happen.
In WoW? Definately will.
Swg, yupp you are 100% correct.
Roma-Victor? 99% incorrect.

Anyways.
The comment that i quoted i disagree with on a DEEP level.
What has brough mankind forward at least the last say 2000 (maybe around 4000) years is not cooperation.
It has mainly been one group of people working to get better then, or suppress another group of people. Yes groups work together. But the people that REALLY brought things forward did it to get better, stronger and more powerfull then others.

If thats a good or bad thing isnt my place to say. But i believe there is a reason for those people. Tyrants or not.
That is also why i am a capitalist in the real world.
My personal thoughts of communism and Socialism is that it is the perfect idea. Its the dream world.
Marx was a great man. A thinker.
But there is ONE FUNDAMENTALLY wrong thing about his thoughts and ideas.
Mankind. The human being makes socialism and communism impossible to work for a longer period of time.
You need to find a balance.

Same with competition. It drives us forward. But you can get to much of it.
I tend to vary alot on that. On some things, i am the extreme outer point of competition attitude. The kind of guy that will ALWAYS try to be best.
But on the other hand. I have so strong personal feelings on honor, that i can never end up cheating to be the best.
In a discussion i will try to make my point.
But i also respect your points, and the others ALOT.

If I have seemed disrespectfull in this thread i appologise. That has not been my intention in this thread.

My point was merely to try to maybe give those of us who loves pvp, a little shiny reward for it. One that was not gamebreaking.

You made a valid suggestion that started this thread. That is nothing to apologise for.... It's something to be encouraged

Debating the history of humanity .....well....I *oh look, coffee* .....