Ryzom

I'm going to reverse your quote order so that you don't get turned off by my arguments in the other half. because I agree with some of what you say.

I disagree. Turn the aggro range down and slow the respawn time to an hour or two. What?! I didn't say to remove them (I don't believe I ever have in this thread). No, I simply said that leaving them as they are is a bad idea.

I agree that if they're respawning within a minute, that's too soon, and if it's too difficult to spot and avoid them due to their aggro range, that that should also be changed, but only if it's so difficult that even constantly scanning your radar doesn't help. (because... you also need to be scanning your extraction bars so you don't blow up. Although I suppose with a merely one additional player, one could careplan for the other, and both could be scanning the radar. PING! (that's the radar noise))
Can people not see these on their radars?? The aggro range is what... half of your max radar zoom-out? 3/5ths? Does that not give you enough time to react?
I think it doesn't change the fact that... you should have to study the patrols in order to find out 1) what path they take, 2) how long it takes them. Even if you can't observe them on your radar, you should be able to zoom in with your binoculars to see what they're doing.

gralen wrote:There is much more to this game than just the mats, I know that is hard for some to understand. People also find it hard to understand that I mastered axe with NPC armor and an NPC axe. So what if I don't dig q200 PR mats, I and all those like me don't deserve to see the Prime Roots? We don't deserve to see the sights down there that hint at how Atys was created?

People continually whine about the lack of content and yet when the most content laden areas become more limited people start cheering. That makes no sense to me.

There's no FICTION content there (outside of unique events like the one we just had to enable KPs), only game mechanics and graphics content.

Like you said, you maxed axes with an NPC item.
People can see a Kitin nest without going to PR (there's one in the jungle and one in the forest, not to mention a genuine PR nest in Lands of Umbra, free of KP, which is geographically the same as the ones in KP zones)
People can see other mysterious things in PR without going on KP PR zones.
There ARE alternatives.
Just because the playerbase isn't large enough for everyone to go into the most dangerous lands in the game doesn't mean it's unfair.
I think I PREFER that the game mechanics of something being difficult matches the lore of the PR being dangerous. How's that for content?

Here's YET ANOTHER alternative to enjoy: make an alternate character. Maybe level them up high enough to afford speed-run. (fight 20, I think) Now use that character to explore every zone, including KP ones. Yeah, you die. Yeah, you "waste time". If you wanted to be efficient you'd be in a guild large enough to support your desired activities. Or even more efficient: not playing video games. (I don't recommend that level of efficiency )

0balgus0 wrote:It's a case of having blinders, methinks, for oldtime Ryzomers who are cheering for KP being back b/c the difficulty setting is amped back up. But we still have a problem of a game with limited viability. Ryzom returns to being a difficult game, but those who do stick w/ the game just might not provide enough subscriptions to keep the game going. I don't care either way. If the game is still fun, I'll stick around. If it's not, then I'll go. But for new gamers who find the learning curve too steep, it will be intriguing to see if at the end of the day there are enough subs to keep Atys running.

I'm hoping those who cheer the return of KPs will help new gamers deal with KPs (among other challenging aspects of the game). Just a reminder: it's bad form to tell new folk "if PR is too difficult, stay out". Because you know what? With stand-offish attitudes like that, people might just stay out (of the game), for good.

I agree and also would say that the type of gamer out there today..likes to see instant results from their "labors" ...and that has to be taken into consideration I think.

I guess PR can be considered to be a raid zone after re-implementation of the KP, and perhaps it could be explained to new players that way.

Of course, getting two teams together to go dig nodes as fast as you can, watch your bars, watch your radar ...etc etc might be exciting to some...ie: those that are gungho for this...but I can safely say it will become old bigtime to those gamers that are new and not used to this kind of setup.

If it is a raid zone, then I still won't be digging I'll be there for the fight rather than be stuck in dig mode with kitins eating me.

Me I'm a digger and a crafter, I don't think I want 2 teams babysitting me while I extract nodes to be quite honest.

So those that tell me to stay out of PR have gotten their wish, and who knows..maybe many more like me...will do the same.

Hey more supers for you..........pfft.

Cend

At this point I’m undecided on this issue of “are Kiten Patrols a good thing or not?”. Our Dig/Spank Expedition was successful during today’s event since we had enough attendance, and it was loads of fun (see Write up/Pics here), fun that would not be happening if KPs did not exist, or were nerfed enough that we’d not be forced to organize a group.

One of the people who was there made the comment, “at least this is a whole lot more fun than fighting an NPC Boss”.

It’s clear that lvl 250 PR zones are no longer accessible at all without at least one full team of masters, and you need 2 full teams to ensure low chance of DP, since one team can’t handle double patrols (which you WILL end up having on you).

The good in this is that it requires grouping up. When groups like that are organized they are badarse spanking fun. And if the Patrols are nerfed a lot, these groups simply won’t happen since there would be no motivation when you can get there without. I’m sure some will stay in Ryzom, having more fun BECAUSE of this. But this is only the case if we mange to keep getting groups motivated to go spank.

The bad in this is that there are many who are very accustomed to being able to solo dig all over these zones. And you could argue that the organized groups can never replace the “duration of time” that one previously could spend in PR. What do people do “instead” of this?

So which is better? KPs, nerfed KPs, or no KPs? I don’t know. Possibly the answers is “very slightly nerfed KPs”, nerfed enough that you can survive, just barely, the onslaught of 2 patrols at once with one good full team, but not nerfed enough to no longer force us to group up.

incend wrote:Okay I am glad that "normalcy" has returned to Ryzom.

But I would say a few adjustments might make things a little more sane to deal with..such as instant spawning of kitins you just killed...lengthen time to ...er a minute after you killed it? LOL They respawn too fast..think the agro range needs to be less than it is.

As for those who already MASTERED PR DURING THE TIME THE KP WERE GONE.....well kudos to you.

Frankly..I want to accomplish something, and I can't see that spending all my time working off dp and not skilling up........is worthwhile.

Someone told me I should go to PR now that the KP are back and thusly sit for hours watching the mob movements (wonder how you do that and remain alive for "HOURS") yet another thing I am not willing to do...especially alone.

I am also not willing to drag 30 people behind me every time I dig a node......can you say BORING? Not for me..but for the poor unfortunates I would have to drag with me each time. Now granted, I suppose "some" will be up for the fight.....but not for the next two months while I "dig as fast as I can before the KP comes!!!???!!) sheeeeeeeeeee......



Cend

I gotta say I agree with a lot of this. I'm lucky enough ot have mastered PR before the reintroduction of the KP's and even then I spent a LOT of my time down there with DP. Roaming nameds, bad weather andaggro-dragging Lumpers, etc is plenty to deal with, without adding mobs that can spot you from half way across the region, which when you're already dodging aggro is somewhat wearying to say the least.

The KPs are fun in principle and they do add some extra fear factor to levelling PR dig and other underground activities, but the aggro range is insane if you actually want to dig and the respawn times could be altered to be on a par with Raj and his buddies or even longer, considering how many of the damn things there are. As things stand even with graphics settings maxxed you often can't see the KP's before they see you, and for those who cannot max out their graphics, well, forget it. And no way would I ask a bunch of ppl to come fight KPs while I dig each day - if I did it would be once in a blue moon. As someone who likes to explore and smell the roses, it took me over 2 years to master PR as it is anyone wanting to do so now has a seious struggle to get over 200 and some mats are now pretty much undiggable without the aforementioned team of bodyguards.

I'm certainly not advocating getting rid of them, now they're back. I like a challenge and always have, but there is challenging and there is downright impossible and the KPs as they are are definitely veering towards the latter. Really a kiro is a kiro, so why should these particualr kiros be armed with sniffer dogs and binoculars when they already have a route that will bring them to most digging homins eventually and enough manpower (er ... kitinpower) to kill the unwary with ease.

On the one hand PR SHOULD be difficult. On the other hand there SHOULD be safe routes that can be worked out and safe places to dig - at least for a few minutes.

faedyne wrote:Can people not see these on their radars?? The aggro range is what... half of your max radar zoom-out? 3/5ths? Does that not give you enough time to react?

please go down to pr and experience the patrols yourself. Sunken City kami tp is nice safe spot (only one patrol i think), so is FD kara tp (3 patrols). LoC kami tp is nice too. 2 patrols there (one on the other side of 'wall')

you dont even need to step outside teleport safe zone. see if you can spot them when radar is 250m or even 125m which gives you ~25m before they aggro which should translate to ~10pixels on radar and to make it worse, one 'dot' on radar is 5x5pixels (5x5 on 25m radar range and 5x5 on 250m radar range btw).

so, with 125m radar range we have whooping 3 sec warning. even if you know from where KP comes next (easy with one patrol, but there is places where 3 overlap), you cannot simple see them by just looking the radar (too many 'filler' mobs... even seeing npc group with different color is difficult) nor can you check the 'horizon' because of filler mobs and landscape (which does not affect KP aggro range, but DOES reduces your detection range)

with 250m radar range, 'filler' mobs are even worse.

vonzuben wrote:So which is better? KPs, nerfed KPs, or no KPs? I don’t know. Possibly the answers is “very slightly nerfed KPs”, nerfed enough that you can survive, just barely, the onslaught of 2 patrols at once with one good full team, but not nerfed enough to no longer force us to group up.

insert more of them down there so no place in wasteland is safe (but no more than 2 overlap), remove kp's from AoI and make it to q250 with limited sup/excel, remove super nodes and pvp from umbra and make wasteland sup/excel spots 'always full' so it's quaranteed to get sup if it's right season/weather/time.

you get your reason to group up for wasteland and a reward for going down there.

raven41 wrote:Why do people love the KPs? They were in when I started playing, I even charged into one to see what happened lol.

For many it seems it's a matter of getting "more stuff" ... (group usually recognizable by use of whine and cheese comments), the "I got it it and you don't" approach. To my mind, there are good things and bad things about KP's.

On the good side, PR with experience becomes a bit to easy. You find your "spots" and then repeatedly hit them over and over again.....KP's add more of a challenge.

On the good side, it fits in very well with the lore.

On the bad side, it further separates the have's and have nots. Large guilds who group hunt will be able to protect their diggers and with the absence of lone diggers competing for the supremes, all the more left for them.

On the bad side, it cuts the small guilds and solo players out of access to yet another part of the game.

On the bad side, the "challenge is really a fake one in most instances. Most spots can easily be dug by a two man team with one doing the digging and the other sitting at a nearby TP, water or other safe spot. Wait till the patrol moves off after a kill then run out and rez ya teamate. While peeps seems willing to do this for the eventual "prize", it certainly is boring and isn't, to my mind good for player retention.

On the bad side, the weather, regular mobs, KP's and the long time between refills with the stable servers, PR digging has become for the most part a test of patience rather than skill.

The new changes have provided new incentive and excitement for a segment of the Ryzom population which is a good thing. However, it certainly disenfranchises another part. Those who have no interest in PvP are shut out of anything to do with honour points and when a good part of the server population is doing that, there's few peeps left to team with and inevitably log out.

With KP's most of this population is at yet another disadvantage since solo players or those playing when guildies and friends might not be logged on have fewer digging opportunities. Ryzom is special in that it has for the most part been able to accomodate many different types of players. With server population as it is, we shouldn't want to disinfranchise any groups. Not suggesting that anything be taken out.....suggesting that the rest of the population be given "equal oportunity".

What I'd do to tweak things:

1. With a normal kirosta having an aggro range of 18m, the current 80m or so seems extreme. Lore wise, this doesn't make sense....something between double normal (36) and 40 or 50m seems more reasonable. Once a homin is found, THEN I'd suggest heightened awareness level which doubles whatever normal range is so as to find those any hidden teamates hiding in the safe spots.

2. When they do aggro, seems to me that one should go out and investigate befor signaling the others to join in, those few seconds "one on one" would provide valuable time to have a shot at survival.

3. Consider having Kiro "captains" dispatch an amount of soldiers proportional to the number of peeps discovered. Send 2 for a 2 man team, 8 for an 8 main team....not necessarily one on one but some sliding formula.

4. Look at other mob patterns in PR. Some dig spots are dug repeatedly, every season....some are never ever touched. Make the untouchables at least somewhat approachable.

5. Get rid of this "if dug in one season, have to skip a season before it refills" thing. If a peep can put up with getting there, can put up with holding his ground for 3 hours while waiting for weather, can get by KP's, he / she certainly shouldn't be stuck with a "empty" message when they are there in the correct season. This was not bothersome when we had weekly server reboots but now it's a real bothersome thing.

6. Put the patrols on a respawn timer like nameds so if ya wipe em out, you don'y see them for an hour or two.

7. Add faction missions to gain honor points.....Kill kitin, dig mats, craft stuff.

blaah wrote:please go down to pr and experience the patrols yourself. Sunken City kami tp is nice safe spot (only one patrol i think), so is FD kara tp (3 patrols).

I sit that spot routinely waiting on tama.....all day yesterday and good part of today. Have seen 3 patrols at TP at once with up to 10 in a single patrol.

If you want something bad enough, you find a way to get it. I've made 3 PR dig levels since KP were re-enabled. Instead of trying to change things to make it easier, how about changing tactics to overcome obstacles.

gralen wrote:There is much more to this game than just the mats, I know that is hard for some to understand. People also find it hard to understand that I mastered axe with NPC armor and an NPC axe. So what if I don't dig q200 PR mats, I and all those like me don't deserve to see the Prime Roots? We don't deserve to see the sights down there that hint at how Atys was created?

People continually whine about the lack of content and yet when the most content laden areas become more limited people start cheering. That makes no sense to me.



What misinformation? I am only reporting what I have experienced and seen with my own eyes. If you would be so kind as to point out where I lied about anything, I'll happily never say another word about the issue.


....



Allow me to make this extremely clear: I DO NOT WANT supreme mats nor do I want boss mats. I HATE supernodes and detest boss hunts which is actually the main reason I turned down Valda's invitation to TI.



I disagree. Turn the aggro range down and slow the respawn time to an hour or two. What?! I didn't say to remove them (I don't believe I ever have in this thread). No, I simply said that leaving them as they are is a bad idea.

[ Removed for offensive language - Baelor ]