Ryzom

Jayla wrote: but at the end of the day, who cares, the server will be up, we'll all be there, so lets just pppppppppplay!

Jayla

Hear Hear! Wipe or no wipe im sure as hell itchin' to play this game again!

I fail to understand why people think that losing their levels equals losing their character. The character is an entity we have in ourselves, not a bunch of bytes that can be easily lost, erased, or mistakenly crambled. Faa for me is a part of me which I shaped into a certain personality and personal (fictional) history. If the char 003140001 is erased by chance, provided that Ryzom works again, Faa will be up on her feet, maybe after some concussion that made her forget all the spells on 4 branches she once learnt, but that's all about it, Faa will still be Faa, no mistake. Her relation with the character 003140001 is accidental not a substance one, similar to the one we have with our library. I would grieve to lose my books but slowly I can put them back and for sure losing them wouldn't mean I lose myself.

I had a couple of chars for fun, a fyrosian girl that gave me huge fun by trecking at level 2 all the world, another tryker girl that crafted most anyting on the island, a matisian girl who was very generous with her storage, aso. Don't even remember the names. They were very close to being only a bunch of bits. A character is what you invest in, once you invest it becomes immortal, same as my Aen is for me. SWG and Sony together may go tumbling to hell, Aen will still be a personality in that virtual world which lived inside the players minds and souls, not on a server. Immortality in a social way is limited by the memory of that community, but from the perspective of human limited lifespan is more than enough after all.

I feel slightly offended by the insinuation I would have ever had any alt to level up , but let not get angry over this, I can as well understand that losing all the work put in a character may make people furious, and men have special physiological abilities to be angry

Whatever the game does we cannot lose our characters unless we chose to (and this is a huge effort made only for special people who can give up to a part of themselves). Faa, Ffy, Keiko, Rushin, etc etc are a certain tryker, a certain fyros, a certain matis, a certain zorai on these forums, in the game, or just wandering the universe, whatever happens with Ryzom's database.
Meh, dunno if I managed to express this thought clearly enough.

Our relation with our character is a both mental and emotional, but what is our character? A bunch of bits on a hard drive? But how do we explain then that each of us identifies himself with a certain character in a given game? I know some heavy RPers able to really play two characters at the same time with different personalities, but again, it's not the 5-12 chars a game offers, they are clearly defined characters they care for.

The character is then defined from two directions: one is our own connection with it: mental and emotional. The emotioanal and mental connections are - by their mere existance - shaping the mental and emotional object we identify as "character". The other is social and then the character is defined by the way other players see ours, in other words by their perceptions and memory of these perceptions. In either way the character is not a mechanical entity. Our character is using the bunch of bites but it cannot be equaled with it.

Losing the bunch of bits doesn't erase the character. It's a hassle and a hardship but cannot severe our mental and emotional connections to that entity, nor erase the community perceptions about it.

Harder to see is the precise moment when a char 003140001 becomes Ffy, Rushin, Keiko, Final etc. That's harder to point out imo. It is probably a slow progress but there is certainly a moment when there is no return and char 003140001 loses most of its connection with Ffy, Rushin, Keiko, Final etc allowing them an independent life.

arfindel wrote:I fail to understand why people think that losing their levels equals losing their character.

Because it is. Simply said, for me, the levels are (a) part of my character. They are a numeric value that reflect my character abilities and how she can interact with the world and with other players, starting from the moment since she was conceived to date. These abilities reflect how I have spent my (IG) live, what are my hobbies, what can I do as a craftsman and what is beyond my power. They aggregate whether I spent my time in a Matisian library studying to pass the "Magician apprentice" rite with Sirgio, or whether I spend my afternoons in a Thesos bar before reaching maturity. They reflect wether I am clumsy or not with magic or a pick, whether I can wield a dagger or, if the game mechanics allowed, whether I am good at trading or selling, if I can sing, dance, or if I have additional hobbies. Levels (as a shorthand for a numerical value that reflects the abilities) are an integral part of my character, much as my diplomas or degrees are in Real Life, and they show accomplishment and experience. Levels are as much part of my character as the name, the race or age.

Losing the levels is losing the past experiences (as general term) of the character.

The character is an entity we have in ourselves, not a bunch of bytes

The character is a abstract "whole", that happens to be represented (for interaction and manipulation purposes) in bytes, as much as it could be in a sheet of paper, or a common understanding between participating players of the whole. The character has attributes, abilities, experiences.

I think that what you imply (and then I agree) is that the player behind the character will be able to "manipulate" the character in a way that is, for practical purposes, equal to what the previous character was manipulated. Is your projection of yourself on the character that is invariant, not the character.

If I log into another MMRPG, and I create an elfic toon named Anissa, I would not be the same character. Just because your wipe happens to be in the same game is not justification. Equally, if I create Anissa in Aniro it will not be the same character. I can play that second Anissa if I was playing the original one.

about it, Faa will still be Faa, no mistake.

No, Faa will be a copy of Faa (provided that no one grabs the name, just for fun). The second Faa will not have helped the construction of temples, will not be able to tell her granchildren how she defeated the Kitin Destroyer, and will cheat if she says that the name on the statue stating how well she did in the dig race is herself. If you use the same name, same race, same hairstyle, surely no other *player* will be able to tell the difference. In that case, why call it Faa? call it Faa2, and play the same. Other players will know that Faa2 is played by the player whose login is arfindel.

d29565 wrote:Oh, Kami were dominating. Well then, definitely can't have a server wipe then!

I'll agree with that.. Id rather come back to Kami domination, theres nothing wrong with being the underdogs.. Ya it will be hell at times, but it will also be even better when we win back some of the OPs.

Better change than stagnation.

<3

iphdrunk wrote:Because it is. Simply said, for me, the levels are (a) part of my character. They are a numeric value that reflect my character abilities and how she can interact with the world, and other players, since she was conceived, to date. .

I see your point, and a very valid one. What I understand is that what we call the character is very much a question of personal perception. I don't mind if Faa is cloned and I don't relate her to any levels and practical achievements, I don't mind if she gets 3 digging masters erased and I can recreate her with exactly same appearance.
On the other side if I chose to play my fyrosian girl (sorry for discrimination, except for being a dwarf I always felt boring to play boys) then she will have a very different story and will be a different character.
I cannot feel inside how you relate Ani to digging levels or healing ones, but I can nevertheless accept that in your personal definition of "your character" these levels are integrant part of it.
Thanks Ani, your answer really helped me see a totally different point of view which I could not grasp as it's not working for me as player.

For pretty much every other game I have played I would tend to agree with those suggesting a character wipe is not that big of a deal. In every other MMO I have played, a character could be rebuilt. Ryzom is different, you do not get an unlimited amount of attempts to save the world and defeat the demon king. Our characters are a cumulation of our choices within the community. I have never played an MMO that had so many moral dilemmas, most of which I, the player would have preferred to ignore. Pero has more emotional scars and blessings then he does ranks.

I think it would be hard to return to a world that does not remember us, a sort of reverse amnesia. If the game intentionally lost its history from launch until present, how much integrity would be left in the new Atys? For me, it would always be in the back of my mind, that our history could once again be reversed when a developer decides it is time for another mulligan.

It would be difficult for me let go of the old Pero. Those choices that defined who he was, how he thought, will have never have been made in the new reality. When I played Ryzom, I suspect there were times when Pero was more "alive" then the person who was supposedly controlling him. Now if I could just harness that ability and turn it into some solid creative writing, I think I could make a couple dollars.

Xtarsia in Warcraft IS the same toon that was in ryzom. (mostly )

She is just as friendly, just as ambitious, just as combat worthy, just as etc etc.

There is a mistake alot of ppl who say they RP, make when they try and seperate themselves from their toons action.

Truth is, you "RP" because it allows you to enact a part of yourself in a more focused way.

Unless they are dishing out Brain wipes, i fail to see where the "RP" argument against a server wipe can really go.

I am indifferent with regards to a server wipe.

I just want the ring back, and to not slow down and crash every time i have 2 kitin fighting 1 guard.

arfindel wrote:I fail to understand why people think that losing their levels equals losing their character.

Ani answered it very well, but I'd still like to give my own version of it. Apologies that it's basicly the same thing she said.

In essence you're right, Faa. The character is an entity we have in ourselves, and just because the server is wiped would not mean I loose my character. What I would loose, is the ability to continue playing and developing that character inside the game.

When my (main) character was created, she was in her late teens, setting foot in the New Lands for the first time in her life while not knowing anyone there, and just beginning to learn how to survive on her own. When the servers went down about 3 (RL) years later, that same character was in her early thirties. By then she was a veteran fighter, harvester and scout, who'd seen every corner of the New Lands, met and befriended dozens of other homins there, fought in wars and participated in many important events.

Characters aren't static entities, they evolve and change as they go through their stories. My character as I last played her was very different from how she was when I first played her. Not just in skills, in everything. Her personality, her convictions, they all continiously evolved as a result of what happened in her life.

If the servers would be wiped, then yes, I could recreate the same character, but I'd have to either:
- Reset the character, putting her back in her late teens and setting foot in the New Lands for the first time in her life. And since events would be very different this time around, the course of her life would be very different. She would, for all intents and purposes, grow up to be a completely different person who just happens to have the same name and appearance.
- Continue her as she was before the servers closed. Except that she suddenly lost a bunch of her skills and half the things she remembers never happened. What do you think would happen to a person who suddenly forgets half of everything she learned and half of everything that happened in her life? I doubt she would be the same person anymore.

That last option could be interesting to roleplay in itself... But anyways, my point is that either way the new character would be a different character. Giving her the same name and appearance doesn't change that. I can't continue playing the character that I played before the servers went down. That character wouldn't stop to exist, but her story would be over.

Not that that would be horrible to me personally. I enjoy that character ofcourse, so it would be a loss, but retiring old characters and starting new characters is something I've gotten used to. I argue against a wipe mostly for different reasons. But I can see how for some, a large part of the fun in playing Ryzom was in playing that particular character, and being forced to play a different character would be significantly less fun. Even if your old character will still always be with you.

arfindel wrote: ... Faa will be up on her feet, maybe after some concussion that made her forget all the spells on 4 branches she once learnt ...

Faa, your logic is impeccable, but logic has no part in this. The attachent to a toon defies logic. However hard I try to replicate Ffi in character creation, there will always be something that is "not quite right". Such was the case on Aniro, a conversation Sara and I had at great length, iirc. We both made replicas of Sar and Ffi respectively, but they were not Sar and Ffi. And why? It boils down to the one line I have quoted from you post above (not just the slight physical changes in character creation), namely that the "bump on the head" scenario is remarkably similar to the "but it was all just a bad dream ..." gimmick used by bad novellists. No-one belives it, it doesn't feel right, and it's cheap and unsatisfying at an emotional level.

Everyone has a good and equally valid perspective on this purely hypothetical conjecture.

Here's mine (again, some more...)

I'm not a very good RPer. (yet)

Sasi is me. I am Sasi. She's more avatar than character.

So...

personally, I don't care all that much about losing levels. But I would cry RL tears over losing my candy cane, my list of missing-forever friends, my yubo plushie.(wait, I never got a yubo plushie... waaaaaaahhhh!)

I'd miss my schweet Sehraci MA, too. And my Sammo axe.

Most of all, though, and really the only part that is truly important to me, is that I'd sorely miss all the wonderful homins that wouldn't come back because their character got wiped. That would be tragic.