Ryzom

P.S. For Acridiel: I might sound harsh on Ryzom, felt you some times now a little hurt by my criticism, and I truly am because my presence here itself is proof enough - i reckon - that I do love the game, just that I badly want to see it using more of the potential there is.

kuroari wrote: Disagree. i'm an "old player" (even if i've not maxed out my skills.. hell i have NO 250s, but i'm still way more efficient than half the 250-ers i know). Doing some pretty intensive research on the different skills and stanzas, i've come up with DOZENS of stanzas that are useful for different situations and based on different weapons. there's so much more than hitting the hardest involved.

I'm glad I found another player thinking as me. I said the same thing in anther post and got totally ignored.

arfindel wrote:P.S. For Acridiel: I might sound harsh on Ryzom, felt you some times now a little hurt by my criticism, and I truly am because my presence here itself is proof enough - i reckon - that I do love the game, just that I badly want to see it using more of the potential there is.

That's true. The game need a lot of improvements, but what's important is that the game mechanics are wonderful and can really improved well.

Stanzas system seems to me very flexible to make new actions and new skills as long as the game go further.

arfindel wrote: Now let's see it closer.
...

...

last first then

I do PvP, but i fall asleep everytime someone starts comparing 1 or 2 % on their armor/weapons etc... i can't stand "extreme PvP" so i say i'm not a PvPer

Fist fighters are vastly underpowerd this is true, i really dont see the problem in this though... most people that have become fist fighters do it for the fun

when you talk about "leveling Melee for the HP bonus" i was actually somewhat shocked! i level melee for the raw power involved! a melee-er is insanely useful even out of his HA! actually you'll almost never see Nightblade in HA unless it's for something _very_ important! (then again, NB looks sexiest in MA _AND_ it's the most useful all-around armor.. especially with some LA bits mixed in )

on that note - i NEVER use nuking while digging. i always carry my 2hsword around and everytime i get jumped by aggro, i use my 2h sword to defend myself against even 250 mobs. My 2h sword was somewhere in the level of 235ish (i forget) and nuking was 230ish. so they were very similliar. using melee i can survive way longer and much faster than when using nukes. So i disagree 100% here!!

the kipucka/sword combo is NOT that extreme of a case actually.. many creatures especially at higher levels have different aversions to different weapons. The kipucka is only the 'extreme' case. Once you play with all types of damage (smash slash and pierce) you'll see how it works it makes a huge difference in many cases too. (to make another example, look at Yetins and Gingos. Also two that make extreme cases when it comes down to how one is equipped for melee!)

""Can you deny that any person in HA with 1-2 spell masters can tank successfully if 1-2 nukers with 1-2 healers are actually doing the fight? ""

EXACTLY. 1-2 spell masters. 1-2 nukers. 1-2 healers. Thats crazy! (to move on to my next point)

Dragon-man and I go hunting for bossmobs all the time. PR lvl 200 and lower. I'm not a 250 melee, Dragonman is not 250 heal (though he did hit 250 nuke) and we always take down _ANY_ boss in PR 200 or less with no problems and very little time involved. I tank, he uses random healing/nuking. Two person team and we can take on not only bosses and nameds, but their guards too. An experienced melee-er can hold an entire group of aggro's attention by himself, and need very little heals to keep that attention. COUNTLESS times i've used Nightblade to save my team's rear by holding off all of the aggro (and often sacrificing my life) so they can get away and come back to save me later (usually.. )

a 250 melee, 250 healer, and 250 nuker can take out almost any boss in the game. a 250 afflictionist can be substituted for the melee, true. But he can also be substituted for the nuker. Try it it works.

Using my melee skills, i'm almost always the last one to go down in a fight, and usually i dont go down at all. Any friends of mine will attest to that fact. the nukers and healers go down first, Melee-ers have to save their butts. I'm not talking in "controlled" situations. i'm saying "oh crap! we just got spawned on by a ****-load of kinchers! everyone run!" sure if you were talking about aggro range and distance and all that fun stuff, it's a different matter. usually a nuker can take that monster out no problem. but when it's down to raw guts, a nuker can't work properly if they are constantly being attacked and having their spells disrupted. The number of times i've saved a nuker/healer through a heal enchant on my WEAPONS (note the 's'.. i carry more than one most the time too ) while holding off the aggro is way too often to count.

don't get me wrong, i believe nuking is amazing as well, but i'm arguing a point here A prime example of a "force to be reckoned with" that has _NO_ nuking powers is Sehraci. Anyone here will attest to her scary prowess in any battle. and she does NOT nuke!

then again - you already pointed out the fact. I'm as someone once called me.. a "Golden Oldie" and i teach my guildies the ways i know.

arfindel wrote:P.S. For Acridiel: I might sound harsh on Ryzom, felt you some times now a little hurt by my criticism, and I truly am because my presence here itself is proof enough - i reckon - that I do love the game, just that I badly want to see it using more of the potential there is.

I´m sorry, but I don´t know what you mean?
I too want the game to improve and use the potential that is surely there, it just seems that we are of quite different minds about how and what should be "improved" and done. Nothing more nothing less.
I was never hurt or offended by anything you said. *puzzled*


Anyway, some of what you say in your post above might well be true but one thing bugs me enormously.

Your hanging ALL your examples on the bosses.

Sorry, but someone who´s out to solo a boss has in my opinion gotten nothing about Ryzom right.
Edit: (And I compliment those who can do it in a 2 man team!)
Ryzom isn´t a Solo Game and should never become one.
Soloing IS damed hard and it should stay that way.
I personally don´t mind it that much because I like to hang around all by myself and just enjoy Atys.
Anyone else who does not think like me may just as well solo, but should be prepared to take the challenge and not get to whine about that "the game is un-soloable". Thats simply not true.
You didn´t say so, but many sadly do, because they don´t see the many, many things that are possible to do with the stanzas.

Sadly many people do not want to really "learn something new" from a game.
They just see "max. dmg. = max.fast XP" Whohooo I RoXXoR. *bleh*
Sadly those are players who LOVE the Crystals because they can zoom even faster in on levels to top, yeay... 250 in two month I RUL3Z! *blah*
This type of player doesn´t give fart about what the stanzas might or might not do. He doesn´t care that he could be a "better fighter" with this, als long as nobody shows him by beating him in a fair fight

So judging every last player out to get to solo the bosses is just a heap of Shalah poo
And even to say, every last player wants to fight bosses the fastest and less challenging way is an even greater one.

I´m by no means what you revere to as a "Hero" or "Hardcore player". I might even get a little offended at that.
We do it because we like it that way. I´ve got over 230 Nukes too, but hell I use them in "self defense" to get something down I can´t get down with a sword. Or I use them in a team when asked to.
I don´t go about exclaiming: Hey look I can shoot lightning from my arse I´m in ur citiz pwning ur guardz!

I´m just a player who enjoys the game, just a little way different that you.
And sorry to say so, you seem to think, at least thats what I guess from you posts, that your way of playing is the the only real one.
Wake up. Or please correct me if I´m wrong in the assumption.

The only really way of playing a game like Ryzom is by enjoying it as much as you can, with the things you´re given by it.

Of course some things could use improvement, but please take a moment to consider other players that might not be out to get everything in the fastest way possible.

On things going unappreciated by players who don´t want to do them...
Someone who does not WANT to look at the stanzas can not and should not be forced to do it.
Alright, he´ll be "forced" to do it, once he notices that he´s not the sharpest knife in the battle and somebody tells him to try "stanza XY".
But you can´t just change the game mechanics to "force" the player to "learn what he must learn". And I mean the player, not the character.

Games like WoW do "force" you to learn what you have to, because you really, really, need to be in peak condition to do anything considered "real play". I´m sorry but I said it before and will do so again:
I don´t want Ryzom to become another WoW.
Just consider again.
Games like WoW "force" your Character to learn the next skill available to him, by offering a minimum of choice to you if new skills are available. So sooner or later, everyone´s the same. Apart from some minor quirks in Equipment and one of the three or so variations on the Class.
Hey... great....

Now if you want such a way for Ryzom, that it might offer the player less choice to get him to his goal, whatever that may be, I beg to differ and again say *blegh*


For you fighting may be " a useful digging supplement skill", but for some it is THE SKILL that gives them FUN.
With all the different stanzas to explore and try it´s a bit like digging.
Just not as linear as digging.
Which it is, if you really think about it.

If you can´t see that, than I´m sorry for you.

(Ouh, I´m starting to really get annoyed, re-reading your post, trying to calm down now a little, sorry....)

Just as you said a clever Nuker doesn´t run out of sap, the same goes for a Meleer. What´s the problem with that? Why can´t it just be so?
I don´t get why you have to contradict everything NB said.
Just for contradictions sake?
Why is this suddenly an argument Melee vs Nuke?
It´s all part of the Game!
It´s just that some things might need a little more tweaking than others.
What to tweak, we could, and indeed so seem to, fill volumes going on and on about.

How long it takes to get any master doesn´t matter either, as long as you enjoy what you´re doing. And again, if you just do it to get to 250 and feel like you´ve got the biggest balls of all, you´re in the wrong game. I think we can agree about that. You don´t seem to be the type of player to do this to me. You´re enjoying the game for different reasons.

Hell, even someone who DOES play to get Über in all Skills has his own way of fun and its granted to him. Only he´ll run out of it before too long and then leave. I won´t shed a tear but as long as he´s had his fun its OK by me.

And, seriously, if MOBs would really just be damageable by ONE SPELL alone...
Well, where would the fun be?
People would learn what spell it is, use it and -puff- get booored.

Notice any difference to how its done now?
I don´t.
It doesn´t matter at all what spell you use on whatever MOB/Boss/ or player, because as long as it does at least some dmg. you feel like you´re contributing something.
If for example Kipuketh could be hurt ONLY and exclusively by a spell combination of Fire and Ice, you´d not only automatically exclude all players that do not have the Fire spell yet, you´d seriously degrade the fun factor in getting the boss by it.
Because it would be "hit the x/y key" over and over and over and over and over... for everyone involved...
Now, where´s the fun in that?


Sorry, I´m really trying to stay calm and focused on a normal discussion here and if I may sound a bit annoyed it may just be the case, but please don´t take any real offense from it and try to understand my point of view.

"Enjoy what you´re doing by doing it in every possible way.
Try other things that just "hitting things with the hardest stanza possible" and you won´t get bored so fast.

Eventually you´ll do of course, but then do something else
But don´t leave the Game because you´re bored."

CU
Acridiel

Edit:
"Golden Oldies" might think different from you, but that does not mean they´re less experienced, or know less about the game than you. That´s quite some contradiction again.
You know Terry Pratchets "Cohen the Barbarian"?
He was old, and had no hair and false teeth and a blunt sword with many a chink in it.
And younger Men thought: "Ha, I´ll beat him to a pulp, he´s old, what can he do to me?!"
What they did not take into consideration was the fact that he had been a barbarian and fighter all his life
and as such had far more experience in fighting and especially in NOT dying then them.

Oi

Maybe acri just doesnt know Faa, but no worries Acri - i'm pretty sure Faa's arguing for the sake of arguments. Don't get in a huss over it (is it even really worth it?)

though i do look forward to seeing what Faa has to say about both posts, i'm shocked our playstyles are so different!

gcaldani wrote:I'm glad I found another player thinking as me. I said the same thing in anther post and got totally ignored.

I know what ya mean

kuroari wrote:Oi

Maybe acri just doesnt know Faa, but no worries Acri - i'm pretty sure Faa's arguing for the sake of arguments. Don't get in a huss over it (is it even really worth it?)

though i do look forward to seeing what Faa has to say about both posts, i'm shocked our playstyles are so different!

Incidentally I know it´s not really worth it, but that´s whats actually driving me nuts... XD I dunno... ARGH!!!

*ROFL*

CU
Acridiel

gcaldani wrote:I'm glad I found another player thinking as me. I said the same thing in anther post and got totally ignored.

Did someone say anything?

gcaldani wrote:I'm glad I found another player thinking as me. I said the same thing in anther post and got totally ignored.

Sorry I didn't mean to ignore you, I just choose to drop the subject there. Because I knew arguing about it would lead to... this *points to insane amounts of text in Faa's, Acri's and NB's posts* and I didn't want to derail the whole thing into a huge discussion about a point that I didn't really care about.

See, my own masters are sword and pistol and along the long way to 250 I've solod both of those on just about anything imaginable. I hardly even use nuke at all anymore, even when up against kipucka's, I use a pike. I even frequently forget to bring amps and have to rez people barehanded. I can't argue that there's no benefit in using lots of different stanzas, I know better.

kuroari wrote:the kipucka/sword combo is NOT that extreme of a case actually.. many creatures especially at higher levels have different aversions to different weapons. The kipucka is only the 'extreme' case. Once you play with all types of damage (smash slash and pierce) you'll see how it works

This is true, almost every creature has protection against one damage type (slash/smash/pierce), and often up to 50%! But, this doesn't hold for magic, where in 90% of the cases an electricity spell is going to work just as well as a poison or fire spell. There's almost no benefit for an elemental mage in using different spells against different mobs,

And, for a melee, well, let's say a sword-user runs into a cuttler. Swords are notoriously ineffective against cuttlers. But unless the sword-user also levelled pike or mace, he's still going to have to use his sword on the cuttler, so there's really no point for him to fight any differently then if he were fighting a torbak. The cuttler's aversion to swords only makes it more difficult to kill for the sword-user, it doesn't encourage him to use different stanzas. (That's part of why I like pikes actually, the ignore armor stanza is only useful if you run into something like a varinx, or a kipucka. )

acridiel wrote:But you can´t just change the game mechanics to "force" the player to "learn what he must learn". And I mean the player, not the character.

Ehm... yes you can, every game already does it. You have to learn the game mechanics well enough or you're not going to survive very long.

For example, if a player wants to survive on their own in the harder regions, they are forced to learn how to sneak. If they shouldn't be forced to learn anything, we'd have to throw out that entire aspect of the game. And I'm pretty sure that's not what you want, so I'm confused what you mean here?

acridiel wrote:Why is this suddenly an argument Melee vs Nuke?

Good question.

acridiel wrote:And, seriously, if MOBs would really just be damageable by ONE SPELL alone...
Well, where would the fun be?
People would learn what spell it is, use it and -puff- get booored.

Notice any difference to how its done now?

The difference would be that people who would be willing to take the time to learn about the mob's vulnerabilities, would have an advantage over the people who don't.

Just like how knowing how to use your stanzas gave you the advantage of being able to take down 3-4 cratchas before needing a breather, while others could only take on one at a time.

But, damageable by ONE SPELL alone is indeed not the way to go. That's a "hard to learn" system, and we want a "easy to learn, hard to master" system. (Currently we have an "easy to master" system where every spell works just as well.) So something like 30% protection against all but one spell. Enough to give an advantage but not enough to make it impossible to play for those who don't want to memorise all the vulnerabilities.

sidusar wrote:
Ehm... yes you can, every game already does it. You have to learn the game mechanics well enough or you're not going to survive very long.

Ehm, I may have been a bit imprecise there. Sorry about that.
What I meant was: You can´t just go and make Ryzom a game that forces everyone to learn everything just to be able to survive.
In Ryzom the thing, at last for me, is that you´ve always got several options and are not forced to learn each and every skill there is, just to be able to go hunting in higher regions.

Try sneaking a lvl 10 character into "Molten Core" and you´ll get what I mean

Hmhm, and OK. A little more depth to the magic-resistances of MOBs coudn´t hurt. Yes.
I misunderstood that. It should then be made (nearly) equal to the resistances to Melee.
I can see your point now Faa.

Edit:
Problem is, that many players don´t expect such a deep System behind the Art of Combat.
Most are used to just hitting a few keys or buttons and wait for timers to go back on green, so to say.
Same with magic. People coming from the usuals crop of games, don´t look for the right combo to built a spell.
They look for THE ONE SPELL, from a teacher, that kills everything (preferably in one shot )
And are not used to shifting through resistances.
Oh, how can I make myself clear in a foreign language... *thinks hard*


They would of course take the time to find that one spell.
And finding it, simply requires about 1 min. time. Hitting each spell button you have and see what it does namely.
Nothings changed there.
But when THE SPELL is found - what then?
They´ll travel to each Boss, and spam it with THE SPELL and go from mentally stable to mental Yogurt of boredom.
Variant spells give the advantage of HAVING variants!!

Don´t you see?

Once known to a few, someone would leak it or siply see THE SPELL and everyone would know it and just aspire to get it, not to "find it out" anymore.
And btw. We allready HAVE the advantage of knowing our Stanzas, so what´s the point of your argument.



CU
Acridiel