Ryzom

I didnt read after Final post
late... but
Dont think will survive at that price, because most of players will not pay for it... and not new players will come if they pay to much... I can love the game but...

IF we pay to much = low number players = low income = low number devs = no upgrades = back to the same = and dont want that again

This are my 5cents

take care all, and lets hope we can have a big party in Lakeland beach

I've always believed that the game itself, nothing else will determine the type of community that grows around it. This has applied particularly strongly to Ryzom because it is perhaps the most socially dependant mmorpg there has been in recent years. Everything about Ryzom depends on social interaction and reliance of other players.

Making ryzom free and offering Donations for example, will not change the type of community that joins and stays with the game only the game mechanics and content can do that. We've seen it before, people that don't fall into line are socially outcast or made example of and mature over time.

If Ryzom were to restart in the near future it will only be serving its existing audience.

To suggest ways of making it commercially successful or to think it even could be, for the first bankruptcy it was real, the second bankruptcy it was positive optimism, now with still only its small community here it is just misguided ignorance to suggest Ryzom will ever be commercially successful or to even turn a profit, because it won't. We only have and will only have ourselves, we are a small community. I think it's important that people understand this first and accept that if we really want to play again we may have to make a sacrifice or two.

I will gladly pay 18.99 million dappers, and I will dance in scanty attire at that beach party. Maybe that will bring in the new players.

The "how to pay"-discussion doesn't interest me that much and for me it's not so important how I pay for the game.
But I just want to point out that the analysis: "It didn't work two times it won't work a third time" is not correct that way. Both, Nevrax and GF had to feed over 20 people from the subscriptions.

But now the developer team is no more. A new company could set up a realistic team size with the subscription model without going bancrupt. Whether this is the best way or not... that I simply do not know. There definitely could be better models to keep the game running. But keep in mind that the conditions are other this time than the two times before.

final60 wrote: To suggest ways of making it commercially successful or to think it even could be, for the first bankruptcy it was real, the second bankruptcy it was positive optimism, now with still only its small community here it is just misguided ignorance to suggest Ryzom will ever be commercially successful or to even turn a profit, because it won't. We only have and will only have ourselves, we are a small community. I think it's important that people understand this first and accept that if we really want to play again we may have to make a sacrifice or two.

Maybe. Usually companies mess up because of ppl not doing the right things or not doing the things right. There are lots of companies that did have a close to perfect product and did mess up nonetheless. Two bankruptcies ain't proof that ryzom was the wrong thing (admittedly, probability's growing).

How many subs you need to have a small stable cash-flow generating business (not to compare with blockbuster games, just a small stable company)? Can't believe ryzom could indeed not achieve that number

...refuse to believe too

embrel
leanon

final60 wrote:I've always believed that the game itself, nothing else will determine the type of community that grows around it. This has applied particularly strongly to Ryzom because it is perhaps the most socially dependant mmorpg there has been in recent years. Everything about Ryzom depends on social interaction and reliance of other players.

Making ryzom free and offering Donations for example, will not change the type of community that joins and stays with the game only the game mechanics and content can do that. We've seen it before, people that don't fall into line are socially outcast or made example of and mature over time.

If Ryzom were to restart in the near future it will only be serving its existing audience.

To suggest ways of making it commercially successful or to think it even could be, for the first bankruptcy it was real, the second bankruptcy it was positive optimism, now with still only its small community here it is just misguided ignorance to suggest Ryzom will ever be commercially successful or to even turn a profit, because it won't. We only have and will only have ourselves, we are a small community. I think it's important that people understand this first and accept that if we really want to play again we may have to make a sacrifice or two.

Yes the game itself determines the type of community that grows around it. Nobody can deny that.
Strongly disagree about everything else you said though.
I played the game mostly solo/duo and enjoyed it a lot, so no, the gameplay does not depend on social interaction and relying on other players more than other mmos out there.
There are a lot of potential fans that never heard of this game because it was never really marketed properly.
There were a few very good posts in this thread that mentioned the importance of targeting the right audience for this game.
The fact that it went bakrupt first time was a result of several factors including a publisher without the financial muscle to keep it going, bad timing, some questionable decisions.
Second time it went bankrupt because gameforge never had the intention to make the game work.
So no, i dont think its misguided ignorance to suggest Ryzom can be financially successful.
Yes right now we only have ourselves, a small group of dedicated fans, but im sure there are a lot more like us out there, they just didnt hear about the game is all, and with the proper marketing strategy, that can change

symolan wrote: How many subs you need to have a small stable cash-flow generating business

During the happy days of Nevrax (around 2002), the numbers that were mentioned were 100k subs to be even. For an updated value, I would check the Virtual Citizenship numbers, their business plan had an approximated idea, but also based on keeping a single international shard. You may want to do a few guesses, based on monthly costs (bandwidth and hosting, salaries, etc). A guesstimate could be well in the thousands of subs (4000 - 10000) but there are too many factors requiring a detailed analysis.

I think a reasonable number to run 3 servers and having a small but devoted dev team is around 100k 150k subs. This is for a game that have the basic gameplay arealy implemented and can plan for a couple of addition per year (apart of bug hunting). I think the main effort now is that Ryzom was never finished in his basic concept (remember Encyclopedia, that, following the concept to 'gain' knowledge' of the world and history, shoud have been finished well before Ring) and, altough all the fanbase really care to have Ryzom up and running (as me) primarily, you have no to forget.
I think, if the Company that owns Ryzom now invested just that money (200k) and nothing more, it will turn in another failure, because the fanbase is too small now (we were 4k in all 3 servers at bankrupcy time, slowly decreasing during time) to sustain Ryzom, even with an increased monthly price.
If the Company has a clean vision, i imagine:
1. it already planned an investment with some milestone to reach in a certain amount of time
2. it will restart knowing what the playerbase 'is' *and* what 'the market' asks

I agree with everyone that said that Ryzom should focus on a 'niche' market, filling the hole left by other sandbox that closed.
There are a lot (but really a lot) of players demanding something different from the actual MMO market (classes, instances, quest-based and item-centric). They could easy reach that amount of subs in few months as long as Ryzom fix what was wrong done in the past.

boinged wrote:My main proposal is that everyone who pays a sub gets the same game experience we were getting before. Everyone that doesn't want to will get something watered down, but they can still play.

Sounds good, as much as I hate the "cash shop" model, I don't see much harm in this other free-to-play model. It's basicly just an enhanced trial.

I agree with Final this shouldn't change the type of player that joins and stays. Those who don't enjoy Ryzom won't stick with it just because it's free, and those who do enjoy Ryzom but can't pay a monthly fee will. It -will- ofcourse attract more trolls. There are those out there who simply enjoy to troll, and a free game is an easier target for them. Whether the influx of players would be worth the influx of trolls is something we can only find out by trying.

And a lot of my aversion to cash shops could be averted if there's only aesthetic stuff for sale, nothing that affects gameplay. The cash shop games I've played have led me to believe that lots of players would be willing to pay (extra) money just for a set of fancy clothes, a shinier weapon, and an ocyx skin on their mount. I wouldn't welcome it, but it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make if it keeps the game running.

Though even if the new owners do choose to implement a cash shop complete with uber-weapons and XP-multipliers, it's a decision that I can understand and see the merits of from a business point of view, even if I'd hate it as a player. Wiping the characters is just... stupid. Shortsighted. Temporary gains for permanent losses.

In any case, even the slogan "This game is free!" isn't going to do much if they don't get it out there.

final60 wrote: I think it's important that people understand this first and accept that if we really want to play again we may have to make a sacrifice or two.

Indeed, but why do I really want to play again? Because Ryzom is much more fun than any other MMO. So much more fun that yes, some sacrifices could be made and it would still be more fun. But enough sacrifices and it becomes less fun than other MMOs, and then why would I still want to play it?

As much as we love Ryzom, we're still customers who want to have fun, not devoted worshippers who want to keep the game alive at any cost. How much Ryzom can sacrifice and still be the most fun MMO, and how big of a sacrifice any given change is, is different for every player. A wipe or a cash shop may only be a small sacrifice for some, but can be a gamebreaker for others.

dentom wrote:Subscriptions work but the player base of Ryzom isn't big enough to pay 20 developers. And that was the case for Nevrax and for Gameforge who guaranteed the old Nevrax staff employment for one year.

But Ryzom's subscription numbers can definitely provide enough money for the servers, a small developer group and some advertisement.

I never came to realize why people - when thinking of a ready made game -first and foremost thought paying a dev is the most expensive thing. First, to put a game online you need to pay the rent... When you can do that you need some machines. When you have even than you need somebody to clean that room at times, which brings us to the water bill of course.
FInally but not finishing you need what we generally call electricity, and not only for that machine, but for the vacuum cleaner and AC too (unless God had mercy and blessed you with a good climate, but then you'll get usually much more dust to clean).
Next you'll need some CSRs, and maybe we remember maybe we don't but there's a big difference between the free and the payed ones. You'll also need a company to put that game online, and I seriously doubt that's the cheapest expenditure of all. They have to keep it online constantly and, whatever absurd this may seem, they will charge a subscription for this little service. In a lot of countries you'll need a lot of paperwork that you won't poison your neighbours, won't electrocute newborns, and won't determine DNA illnesses into your unsuspecting neighbourhood. The guys providing you with papers will take advantage and most surely will ask some fee for each of them.
WHen all these are payed and you suspect you'll be able to pay it for the next 2 months as well, then we start to think about devs. And guess what: devs, contrary to electricity for example, are upgradable. One can start with only one make them 3 in 3 months, then 5 in 6 months, if things go well, and so on (you can try the even numbers with similar results).
Adding devs seems to have closed the case... but no, just when you feel on the safe side you have to pay the taxes.