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Re: Outposts Outlined

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:27 am
by xenofur
mrshad wrote:Now, I can see how leveraging terrain and and the surrounding fauna in order to get an advantage while attacking enemy fortificaitons could be a valid tactic. I agree with that view point. With all the problems PvP is going to bring us, training aggro into the confict will be the very least of our worries.
that's all he was talking about ;)

Re: Outposts Outlined

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:01 pm
by wepps
xenofur wrote:that's all he was talking about ;)
Yeah that's all I'm talking about :)

But the poster I was responding to was giving real life examples, so I provided those from the proper perspective.

Although I was comparing apples and oranges basically, he was comparing apples and automobiles, and I needed to bring him back to the fruitstand hehe.

So when the guy argues that, yes in real life we have rules of war, that's not the point. What he is describing using his real life comparisons is CHEATING. That is, the rules are outlined through the code, here is the plethora of things you can do. But some chose not to adhere to the rules and need to be punished, these are using 3rd party programs to alter the ruleset.

Exploiting, however, is something different. It doesn't really exist.

Some examples:

In Star Wars Galaxies, near release of the product, I witnessed 2 fellas fighting a really tough critter. They were maneuvering it so that objects were between the critter and themselves, thereby buying them time to take it down, but they were brand new to the game and had no skills or firepower. The end-result was they were killed, but I watched them keep that critter busy for over half an hour. Now, because of the nature of how they would be rewarded, through the ruleset provided governing max-experience payout, they would have done better to go find things their own size, and they were aware of this they were just...having fun!

Instead, the SWG CSR banned those two from play, and then added code so that if a creature gets caught up on anything at all, it would teleport directly onto your position. Yeah, that was fun :P

The players were using tactics to overcome their weakness. It didn't work, but this is a TYPICAL thing the human mind will attempt to use to solve a problem, not an exploit which would force the developers' hand.

In World of Warcraft, a tough NPC in the middle of a ring of say, a hundred other mobs, was inside a cave. A group went there, and applied tactical thinking to take that NPC down. They had a rogue sneak into the NPC's location, aggro it, and the Warlock in the group teleported him back to the group without aggroing all the intervening junk. After an extended fight, they took the guy down.

The entire group was banned from play for exploiting.

Give me a break. That's not exploiting, that's GENIUS! True tactical thinking adds flavor to a game that may often be lacking content. But the difference between being able to accomplish these things in the gameplay and calling them content, and the cave you have to go to to find the game content, is that it is always readily available to the player character.

A player logs on, and that fun content is automatically presented to them directly, and then by expanding that content to the rest, the game is just magnified in fun game play.

So, by calling the above examples exploiting and taking over-baked measures against the players, these companies served only to alienate a player type seeking tactical thought in their game play, and nothing more.

It's a game. There should never be a situation that cannot be exploited in some fashion. But by providing a great number of things to do potentially OUTSIDE the normal button presses, it balances itself out as these are available to all sides in the engagement.

But hey, I know how things work....

"WTH! What's the point of my jet if they just shoot me up at the airfield anyway? BAN THE EXPLOITERS!"

I'm not judging before it comes to us live, and I'm not telling the developers what to do. What I am doing is hopefully opening up a possible different avenue of approach that is often overlooked, and perhaps spark something in their creativity when it comes to this new feature. Nothing more.

Anyway, I've had my 15 minutes.

Re: Outposts Outlined

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:43 pm
by ozzy111
I may be missing the point but allow me to throw something out there . . .

The attacking force must kill all the defenders in a given round, repeat the process several times, and then at the appointed time it is decided if they obtained the appropriate level to take the outpost. Ok, so what if every round the defenders leave a small contingency at the post and they run in several directions for the duration of the round, thus evading death. Then they could return at the beginning of each round to repeat the process. . . . Thus thwarting the efforts of the attackers ???

Another potetial tactic for weaker/smaller guilds who own outposts?

Ryzorski

Re: Outposts Outlined

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:56 pm
by ozzy111
grimjim wrote:Couldn't you find a friendly guild to declare war on your outpost and then not show up?
Then you could annihilate the attacking force of NPCs and ramp up your defence value to a stupid level for several days making you harder to attack for other groups.
Also, couldn't alliances of guilds constantly declare war on each other's outposts to prevent anyone else from declaring war and trying to take them?
Sorry, just seeing potential exploits.
Don't forget the defense value falls a level every two days (if I remember what I read correctly) So in order to retain a defense level you would have to arrange a friendly invasion quite often to maintain it.

I'm not sure your second point is viable unless rumors of the true attackers intentions leaked to you before they attacked.

Just some additional thoughts.

Ryzorski

Re: Outposts Outlined

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 1:17 pm
by aylwyne
wepps wrote:But the poster I was responding to was giving real life examples, so I provided those from the proper perspective.

Although I was comparing apples and oranges basically, he was comparing apples and automobiles, and I needed to bring him back to the fruitstand hehe.
All I was responding to was your completely false statement that in war "there are no rules".

Re: Outposts Outlined

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 1:33 pm
by wepps
aylwyne wrote:All I was responding to was your completely false statement that in war "there are no rules".
And again, what you are describing is a false example, as you are producing apples and automobiles.

In war, EXPLOITING is everything. CHEATING is the comparison you mean to make.

Okay here we go...

We all make a set of rules to govern ourselves during a time of war, and let's say we refer to them from here on out as the Geneva Convention.

The Geneva Convention, then, is what the developers are saying is the ruleset, through the code they apply.

A player comes along, let's call him BinLaden, who decides he isn't playing by those rules, and therefore purchases the /Usesuicidebombers 3rd party program.

This player is cheating, and when caught, will face the ramifications of his actions.
________________________________

The USMilitary Guild has the Predator Drone available to them. Recently, one of those drones provided witness to a 3-man terrorist team setting up a mortar unit to bomb a school.

Typically, you would take out that team. Instead, the command was issued by the Guild Leader to let them attack, and follow them back to their hideout, which the drone did, and then blew up the building, removing the greater threat for the future by killing the other Guild's base.

Is this exploiting?

Yes, according to typical game designs these days, the Guild would be punished for doing something that the developers did not anticipate.

I maintain, however, that this is TACTICAL THINKING, not exploiting, and is a leadership quality, not something to be punished. If you are looking for good leaders, you aren't searching for left-brained individuals whose abilities to analyze (or code) are exceptional, you are looking for individuals who are right-brained, creative thinkers.

Left-brained individuals will look at the situation, calculate the math, and conclude the engagement can't be won. Right-brained individuals will figure out how to win anyway, by exploiting everything OUTSIDE the math. This is tactics, and this is a very important aspect of leadership.

Exploiting many different possible methods to confuse an enemy, reduce his force power, or magnify yours for the purpose of winning an engagement regardless of the math, THAT is tactics.

In the end, what you were describing is the rules governing CHEATING. That is an entirely different perspective than what I am talking about. In war, there are no rules, you make it up as you go along by exploiting every possible method available to achieve the victory, nothing else matters.

edit - Truthfully, those rare individuals that can BOTH think creatively and analyze accurately are invaluable to any team. And although you can train a creative thinker to accurately analyze a situation, you can never train an analyzer to think creatively....just an afterthought.

Re: Outposts Outlined

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 1:33 pm
by xenofur
this was brought up in another thread:
due to point 8. it would be possible to instakill homins on respawn, how about a full non-pvp zone around teleporters or even whole cities?

Re: Outposts Outlined

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:09 pm
by hans1976
Weps: Something to think about is while these players were having fun (to which I fully agree), there is a whole lot of idiots who will misuse the same sequence of events to harvest a mob repeatedly. Please let's nt starts the discussion what can be defined as "Fun". ;-)

@Ozzy: You will have to kill the defending NPC's, not the players. I doubt a player can steer the NPC's to that lvl.

Re: Outposts Outlined

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:15 pm
by wepps
hans1976 wrote:Weps: Something to think about is while these players were having fun (to which I fully agree), there is a whole lot of idiots who will misuse the same sequence of events to harvest a mob repeatedly. Please let's nt starts the discussion what can be defined as "Fun". ;-)

@Ozzy: You will have to kill the defending NPC's, not the players. I doubt a player can steer the NPC's to that lvl.
lol!

True it's a weird concept. But to simply describe 'fun', you can easily just state that...

Options = choices = content = fun

Therefore, options = fun. And although this is only one aspect of the definition, the way I describe it suggests that it is readily available to any player without having to go find it. It becomes a part of a player's potential repertoire of skills or abilities no matter where they are on the map, and magnifies the existing content by default.

And I'll just leave it at that, I've said too much really hehe.

Again, I'm not criticizing the design, or saying "wepps method is how it should be done", I'm just hoping to spark the creative thinkers on the development team to see a possibility whereas previously they may have ignored it.

edit - exploits themselves are not necessarily BAD, if the development team is willing to see them from the creative perspective. They may be an opportunity rather than a negative oversight. If they are willing to expand on the exploits rather than just try to suppress them, there is potential fun content to be found!

Re: Outposts Outlined

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:06 pm
by hans1976
wepps wrote:lol!

True it's a weird concept. But to simply describe 'fun', you can easily just state that...

Options = choices = content = fun

Therefore, options = fun.
I know a few greek philosophers you should connect to a generator, they will be spinning in their graves so fast, they can power a medium sized city...

A whale = mammal = human = Wepps.
Therefor, Wepps is a whale.

Do tell me how you keep your machine dry with that much water around?