Ryzom

lol - Well, I am generally a realist with a touch of idealism and optimism for good measure.

Most of the last 13 years of my work history has been in sales/sales management with a dash of business ownership and charity coordinating. I guess I've developed a sense of patience with release date announcements and project setbacks.

That, and my ex-wife sapped most of my excitability away... much in the way a leech will take your blood (not a general statement about my views on marriage or the female sex at all, just my ex-wife). That and my experiences with SoE with EQ2. They are quick to add new content... but it's always broken, full of bugs, and crashes the servers at least twice per day for a couple weeks. I suppose after that, hearing they are delaying something to ensure it works *and* is good for the community, I'm happy. Even if they simply haven't got enough development done yet for an earlier release... I'd rather it be delayed than rushed in. I am scarred from SoE's horrid development scheduling and poor testing *shudder*

Seriously though... I haven't been with Ryzom long enough to get frustrated with anything yet... so I can't really discount your frustrations. I think many of my "Tomorrow's another day" posts are a result of corporate morale training bleeding into every aspect of my life.

vguerin wrote:Everything they do is delayed, it was funny he mentioned they were gonna slow their rush to release to release something that was long overdue. Eventually Rothi you will have less faith in some of the time delaying tactics like the rest of us cynics

Spires are intriguing to me but this implementation seems like something that will ball up our community more...

rothimar wrote:. I suppose after that, hearing they are delaying something to ensure it works *and* is good for the community.

For what is worth, I'm naive enough to buy most things, but what better reasons to give to the community to announce a delay?

Hypothetically speaking, if you are a software publisher, if you are going to announce a delay, you may have lost all your developpers, someone has sold the workstations and fled with the money, your plan has changed a hundred times, the guy responsible for that part has quit, you understimated the time it would take to finish it due to bad planning and you are still at 70%, your sole developper is sick or you realize that your plans for world domination are not working as expected.... yet in most cases the official reason given is "to make sure bugs are worked out", "to take player feedback into account" or "do proper testing".

As DT says, most of the features in game have been delayed, for one reason or another. Announcing that foo/bar/baz has been delayed again to take into account feedback, reported to who knows when and that there are several factors that made it more complex, taking the time to do a proper spring clean and writing down an executive letter detailing the main steps in software developing from design to release engineering; releasing a preliminary/dumbed down version announcing that improved parts will be released later... well, yes, I used to buy it

Unfortunately & sadly, I am more wary now, I admit it, when you are told again and again the importance of proper testing and yet errors happen again and again (some are reasonable and expected, some are not), seeing that server & shard stability is decreasing, that patches fixing patches fixing patches are rushed, that just after patching a properly installed Ryzom you get an "abnormal program termination" and a "Nel error report window" simply clicking the "ryzom will now relaunch"... I take those announcements as either empty canned responses or PR wording: "measures have been taken to make sure the feature will be flawlessly released".

Yet I think this is true for spires, -- although it may be as well due them simply not being ready -- but this case since it may be a "damage control" action. Would they risk a massive number of players leaving, or take a bit more time to think over the effects they may cause? what also saddens me is this "half implemented" effort... some people may think they could have been put to better use

iphdrunk wrote:Would they risk a massive number of players leaving, or take a bit more time to think over the effects they may cause? what also saddens me is this "half implemented" effort... some people may think they could have been put to better use

Having done some amature software development, and having experience in web design, I can only begin to fathom the massive scale a project like Ryzom is. We're not talking a couple hundred lines of code... we're talking hundreds of thousands of lines of code. And if Nevrax listened to every player's opinion of how the game should be... nothing would ever get done. Everyone has an agenda.

With every new feature, there are 100 potential features effected that they know about, and sometimes it can be difficult to anticipate some of the effects on system stability without running a patch on the live servers. I can only imagine the frustration a developer must feel when they launch something, and it glitches, or reduces server stability. Then comes the troubleshooting, which usually needs to be done in the environment it is causing issue with, without interrupting service to the player base.

Not an easy task.

I don't work for Nevrax (though I'd jump at the chance if available in the Northeastern US), but I do sometimes get frustrated with the lack of understanding people can have with the development staff. This is not a complaint about anyone in particular... it seems that a large portion of the veteran player base is somewhat jaded. And I can certainly understand the frustrations... I've had them myself with other games. I suppose what sometimes gets to me is that people are expecting SoE sized content from a developer with a much, much smaller budget.

Think of it this way...

If you are a relatively small company competing with juggernaughts like SoE and Blizzard, and the need to delay something pops up... how would you present it? If you are completely honest about the situation, and explain limited budget / small development staff... how many newer/potential customers will you lose? What sort of write-up will be circulated around the gaming community? Or, if you announce a delay for quality assurance and community response adaptation, will you anger people who have been wanting the new content? Or people who feel that Spires is unwated? How would you spin the situation, knowing that what you say... and something really should be said... regarding a development delay could effect your incoming revenue stream?

The situation isn't black & white in the manner with which many players seem to think it should be. Official announcements have a definite impact on the profitability or financial viability of Ryzom based on player/reviewer interpretation. What's the best way to handle a situation?

I dunno... I guess I just come at this sort of thing from a different perspective. I believe that to truly be effective at providing feedback, it's best to state an opinion clearly with suggestions of a better way to handle the situation. Player feedback that states an opinion of what one does and doesn't like with how the player would rather see it done is very valuable to a developer. Player feedback which is simply ranting criticism only alienates the developers from the playerbase.

I'm not saying people should play the "fanboy/girl" route... but rather accept the restrictions imposed on the developers due to a smaller budget then the huge game developers, and provide descripting and suggestive feedback rather than "I'm bitter and you'll see someday why" posts.

And please... don't any of you take this post the wrong way... I hold nothing against anyone I've met on the forums or in-game, with the exception of one person (not naming names), and I'm just offering my perspective.

rothimar wrote: I can only begin to fathom the massive scale a project like Ryzom is. We're not talking a couple hundred lines of code... we're talking hundreds of thousands of lines of code.

True, it's a complex and large project, but I like to think that when one given player suggests a feature or evaluates something, he may have, at least, some idea of the complexity involved. In MMRPGs and online communities, while you get a mix of people working in a diversity of unrelated things, there may be players working in big software development projects.

With every new feature, (...) effected that they know about, and sometimes (...) anticipate some of the effects on system stability (...) without running a patch on the live servers. (...) Then comes the troubleshooting, which usually needs to be done in the environment it is causing issue with, without interrupting service to the player base.

I would dare to say that most developpers know about side-effects and unexpected bugs. Complex module inter-dependances and blah blah - with all due respect, that did sound like a developper justifying but this does not explain every single glitch. Sometimes "it was badly managed, badly tested or rushed". My point was not about the unrealistic expectations about flawless / bugless software, but more about some bugs that one could expect not to go live, less when it is praised.

lack of understanding people can have with the development staff.

I understand as well your thoughts but yet, some of the points or concerns raised are not raised due to "lack of understanding". There is a context around.

I suppose what sometimes gets to me is that people are expecting SoE sized content from a developer with a much, much smaller budget.
If you are a relatively small company

I'm a small customer, my paycheck is not as big as my boss who also plays MMRPGs. I know of hundreds of people who have bigger budgets than me. I also know of several students and unemployed players. Can we play 5€ a month instead of 12? I know, I know, just kidding a bit, but there's some truth behind.

If you are completely honest about the situation, and explain limited budget / small development staff... how many newer/potential customers will you lose?

So you are justifying lack of honesty due to small development budgets and staff?.

What sort of write-up will be circulated around the gaming community? Or, if you announce a delay for quality assurance and community response adaptation

I'm unsure about that, to be honest. I think that for Ryzom in particular players have appreciated honesty in the past. It's being treated as dumb customers who can nod and eat what they're given that may anger them.

I guess I just come at this sort of thing from a different perspective. I believe that to truly be effective at providing feedback. (...) Player feedback which is simply ranting criticism only alienates the developers from the playerbase.

Again, while this is true, please do not forget that while some of our posts do sound (and are) ***** or unconstructive, there is a history behind. You cannot put us all in the same "unconstructive feedback" box. Some players have been testers, reported bugs, submitted page-long suggestions, etc.

I'm not saying people should play the "fanboy/girl" route... but rather accept the restrictions imposed on the developers due

I don't think you should consider all feedback as unrealistic and not taking into account developer restrictions (e.g. improving communication and more open information has nothing to do with SoE budget).

descripting and suggestive feedback

Suggestive feedback? have you looked at the thread "what bugs you most"? do you have anything to say about that? would writing down a summary of main points, stating what you have taken into account, what features have been retained, or simply a summary and help other players not suggest the same again and again equire blizzard staff?. As much as I cannot blame every single player of being a blind fanboy, you cannot sya "stop giving unconstructive feedback".

don't any of you take this post the wrong way... I hold nothing against anyone I've met on the forums or in-game, with the exception of one person (not naming names), and I'm just offering my perspective.

Not taken as long as arguments are presented in a clear, respectuous way it's my pleasure. That said, I'll try to refrain from dragging this too much.

iphdrunk wrote: I would dare to say that most developpers know about side-effects and unexpected bugs. Complex module inter-dependances and blah blah - with all due respect, that did sound like a developper justifying but this does not explain every single glitch. Sometimes "it was badly managed, badly tested or rushed". My point was not about the unrealistic expectations about flawless / bugless software, but more about some bugs that one could expect not to go live, less when it is praised.

I can agree with you here... and as I gain more experience with Ryzom updates and new feature releases, I'll have a better guage on the situation. But from what I've seen so far with Ryzom compared to some other titles, we're pretty lucky.

iphdrunk wrote: I understand as well your thoughts but yet, some of the points or concerns raised are not raised due to "lack of understanding". There is a context around.

And there's a context for the context... many of the posts I've seen regarding frustration with the Ryzom development process involve old injuries which probably outdate some of the developers, and most of the player base. I'm speculating on that bit, of course, but it does seem that old woulds heal slowly for some. I have only been here for a couple of months... so I couldn't really comment on *why* old issues keep popping up... just that it seems a few players are still pretty bitter.

iphdrunk wrote: So you are justifying lack of honesty due to small development budgets and staff?.

Not at all... If Ryzom makes a statement that they want to ensure a feature is reworked due to community feedback, so the feature must be delayed, they can't really give an estimate on when it will be finished due to the need to rebudget the development schedule, reschedule development, etc. etc. If they haven't finished it yet, or haven't done enough testing and need to delay it, that's one thing. But they have announced they are going to rework some of the features which requires a delay. We're not shareholders of Nevrax, or investment firms, so we are not entitled to the same level of information as if we were.

Now if Nevrax releases spires and it is exactly like it was going to be (as of Nevrax's last descriptions), then I would feel a bit let down. If they have 2-3 reasons why Spires will be delayed, they're going to mention the best reason, and probably leave out the rest. That's just business.

iphdrunk wrote: I'm unsure about that, to be honest. I think that for Ryzom in particular players have appreciated honesty in the past. It's being treated as dumb customers who can nod and eat what they're given that may anger them.

Personally, I haven't been given any reason not to believe what has been said yet, save the words of more veteran players. Though, I have seen veteran players express a similar outlook as mine in the past. Don't get me wrong... I am cynical when it comes to announcements of delays, or other damage control releases... but I don't see the need for all the doom & gloom.

iphdrunk wrote: Again, while this is true, please do not forget that while some of our posts do sound (and are) ***** or unconstructive, there is a history behind. You cannot put us all in the same "unconstructive feedback" box. Some players have been testers, reported bugs, submitted page-long suggestions, etc.

That history doesn't always make it to new players when they log in and see some of these posts, and decide not to come back because of what they read. There are a whole slew of reasons why some of these things haven't been addressed yet (or are being addressed, but it takes a while with people screaming for new content, bug fixes, ect, with a small budget).

iphdrunk wrote: I don't think you should consider all feedback as unrealistic and not taking into account developer restrictions (e.g. improving communication and more open information has nothing to do with SoE budget).

After some (not all, not even most) of the threads I've seen... I woudn't want to communicate with some of the posters as a developer either. People can get pretty nasty on these boards... though It's not as bad as I've seen elsewhere.

iphdrunk wrote: Suggestive feedback? have you looked at the thread "what bugs you most"? do you have anything to say about that? would writing down a summary of main points, stating what you have taken into account, what features have been retained, or simply a summary and help other players not suggest the same again and again equire blizzard staff?. As much as I cannot blame every single player of being a blind fanboy, you cannot sya "stop giving unconstructive feedback".

I've seen that thread... as well as the many, many other threads which are not nearly as nice. What I meant with unconstructive feedback was more the "whining" about Nevrax which doesn't offer any more than a sense of "ok, I read you were upset in the last 47 posts you made". It can get old, and it doesn't wash with some of the newer players the same way it does with the veterans. I understand there are frustrations... but it sometimes seems like people have lost the ability to move on from old grievances.

I guess my reasoning comes from 4 lines of perception.

1) New Player - I haven't seen some of the issues some of you have seen, I've only read about them. And from what I've read, it's impossible to get an objective opinion about them from the player base.

2) Sales/Marketing Experience - I've been in the business for more than a decade, so I understand how difficult it can be to put a possitive spin... which in business is important to maintain market viability... on a negative situation. I also understand that no business will divuldge all of it's operations with their customers, or the reasons why they do everything they do. This would slow down the process to a crawl, and open up every little detail to scrutiny. I wouldn't work under that pressure, I'm sure most of you wouldn't either.

3) Minimum experience with programming - I've coded a few very basic programs, and can only imagine the massive scale of "holy crap!" that goes into an update, patch, or bug fix. Adding /dance2 isn't a matter of flipping a switch, for example.

4) Possitive Outlook - I've worked pretty damned hard over the last 6 months to turn around about 3 years of severe depression since my ex-wife and I split. I'm finally much more possitive and actually getting to be "happy" again... so it's bound to infest everything I do... even post on the forums

And again, just pointing out my perspective. Not intended to offend anyone.