A 2nd letter to FairHaven from AA

[philu]

OOC: why does every single Kami quote this when a topic about Kami vs Kara pops up? Get your facts straight: the Commandment says to never venture deep into the Prime Roots to try to find the Dragon. The regions we have access to are thus clearly not the deep Roots, as people have been all over them and have yet to find the Dragon. Ergo: the PR regions available ingame are accessible to the Karavan.

And your point is?

I was clearly using that as an example of a commandmant from the Karavan rather than a choice. So which fact did I get wrong there? You're the one who needs to actually read a thread before making an attack against the Kami. If you had read my post you would note I wasn't defending the Kami, I was disagreeing with Pero's claim the Karavan only offer choices and insights and citing the Prime Roots commandment as an example.

[akicks]

OOC: why does every single Kami quote this when a topic about Kami vs Kara pops up? Get your facts straight: the Commandment says to never venture deep into the Prime Roots to try to find the Dragon. The regions we have access to are thus clearly not the deep Roots, as people have been all over them and have yet to find the Dragon. Ergo: the PR regions available ingame are accessible to the Karavan.

To the karavan there not (there are no karavan down there). To karavan supporters (players), they are.

There are karavan tps. But non are maned by a karavan officers. They are instead maned by people from the Kuild. (I know, picking on words, but I hope you see why )

[ghyselsj]

That's what I meant... I'm just too used to leave out the "supporters" bit cause it usually isn't needed. My bad.

[ilthor]

You can say that the Matis are the largest threat to the Lakelands. To do that, you have to define threat as living together and sharing the benefits of each others culture. Threat would have to mean a common set of beliefs and the very real probability that a Matis through service to Fairhaven could have more influence then a just confirmed Tryker citizen and vice a versa.
Pero

Where other than tryker and who other than Matis folk has OP's in continents other than the main race's in guilds one? Not clear enough? Tryker do not own Op's in Matis (nor would matis folk allow it..), same goes for Fyros and Zorai. Nevertheless all here are familiar with the "war effort" some matisian guilds are doing, all over Atys it seems, having until this moment conquered and established a lvl 250 OP right in a foreign continent. And some trykers are fine with this taking of their land, hell its in the name of the goddess and friendship (max 75 fame it seems), so why not. Count me out of Tryker citizenship then, if the price is "selling your firstborn"! I'll proudly wear my 30+ Tryker fame with a neutral hat, instead of bowing to invaders.. damn that Still Wyler, blindest of the blind.

[tylarth]

Where other than tryker and who other than Matis folk has OP's in continents other than the main race's in guilds one?

A kami/fyros guild in flaming forest and knot of dementia

Tryker do not own Op's in Matis (nor would matis folk allow it..), same goes for Fyros and Zorai.

Yet this arguement seem not true of guilds who distain loyalty to race and faith yet own OPs, so why should it be true of those with conviction race or cult

Nevertheless all here are familiar with the "war effort" some matisian guilds are doing, all over Atys it seems, having until this moment conquered and established a lvl 250 OP right in a foreign continent.

From the perspective as a follower of Jena, I do not see the change of ownership in Loria to be of any detriment to the tryker people

And some trykers are fine with this taking of their land, hell its in the name of the goddess and friendship (max 75 fame it seems),

The fyros seem not bothered a guild of no race or cult loyalty seized a 250 OP in flaming forest, nor the tryker of a similar status guild for the libery lake OP, nor the zorai a fyros guild owning one of 'their' 200 OP

so why not. Count me out of Tryker citizenship then, if the price is "selling your firstborn"! I'll proudly wear my 30+ Tryker fame with a neutral hat, instead of bowing to invaders.. damn that Still Wyler, blindest of the blind.

Are you a tryker citizen? are the one blind? Do you seek to cause hatred where there is none?

The strenghtening of a Nation with the assistance of allies is no invasion, the trykers believe in freedom, that is the way of Jena, that is why here worshippers are so diverse, from slaver to philanthropist, There are no false love or fabled enlightenment to mask a rule of control and stagnation as kami dictate, kami seek to preseve an unchanging world to the detriment of homins, the antithesis of all tryker values.

It is perhaps when a tryker reaches an age of wisdom, when reasoning replaces rashness and reaction that they see the truth of the the faith of the kami and the benign freedom of Jena. To reject jena is to reject freedom, to assist kami is to support tyranny and to stifle homin achievement. I wish to live in a world of homin, not of kami. The wisdom of the Tryker elders is the greatest on atys, and it chose Jena as it patron.

Her rules are simple, to those ready to attack them, remember the rule of the deep roots is for the security of all hominkind, fyros greed and impetuiousness led to the fire of Coralis and the Great Swarming, had thet heeded the word of jena many homins would not have needlessly died.

[kratos84]

A kami/fyros guild in flaming forest and knot of dementia

Just thought I should clarify, I think Atys Paladins have a strong enough tie with the Zorai in terms of our activity and member base not to be seen as foreigners to the jungle.

AP also reclaimed the outposts from lawless bandits for the local nations and rebuilt them ourselves into their current form... instead of taking them by force from another guild. We seek never to offend anyone who has done us no personal harm, that should not be confused with the more aggressive playstyle others might have been misled to relate us to.

[akm72]

...trykers believe in freedom, that is the way of Jena, that is why here worshippers are so diverse, from slaver to philanthropist,...

Mighty conveniant if you're a Matis slaver, not so much fun if you're a Tryker slave.

...benign freedom of Jena.

What definition of benign are you using!? How does it square with coming to Atys with celestial legions to wipe out those who stand between you and the Kami?

To reject jena is to reject freedom,...

Including the "freedom" to be a slave, apparently...

The wisdom of the Tryker elders is the greatest on atys, and it chose Jena as it patron.

Also that they fought against the Matis, rather than submit to slavery, don't forget that!

You are, in effect, agreeing with me that sharing a belief in Jena with the Matis wont stop them from attacking us one day. Yet that would be the only thing standing in the way, should we be foolish enough to alienate all other potential allies by helping you attack them.

[tylarth]

Mighty conveniant if you're a Matis slaver, not so much fun if you're a Tryker slave.

Jena allows all who chose her way the freedom to determine their own path be it rogue or saint. All are equal unless they anger her. Jena does not wish slavery as the Kami claim, For she rescued Homin from the dragon's slavery, and in more recent history persuaded the matis to stop the tryker slavery. These are exceptions when the actions of another threatens an entire race with tyrannyand destruction, so her hand does not move for matters homins can deal with, yet in the face of the Great swarm it moved, and now against the the tyranny of the Kami it moves once more.

What definition of benign are you using!? How does it square with coming to Atys with celestial legions to wipe out those who stand between you and the Kami?

The same benign that saved hominkind from slaughter by kitin, that ressurects, that teaches and taught homin of civilisation, progress, achievement, ambition and ultimatly to be the masters of their own destiny. It is a hand that cares, yet who doesn't take direct action unless absolutly nessessary.

Also that they fought against the Matis, rather than submit to slavery, don't forget that!

You are, in effect, agreeing with me that sharing a belief in Jena with the Matis wont stop them from attacking us one day. Yet that would be the only thing standing in the way, should we be foolish enough to alienate all other potential allies by helping you attack them.

But an alliance with Fyros or Zorai would ultmatly be fighting for the denial of Tryker freedom as they both support Kami to whom Tryker freedoms are not condusive to the Kami balance. The Matis learnt from their past errors that the Tryker spirit cannot be tamed, nor condecended to, that the tryker when united are as strong as any nation, thus from begrudging respect of the matis' own lack of forethought, they sought common interest and mutaul friendship, as matis and tryker fundamental beleifs are in essense the same, the freedom to achieve ones goal whether exploration and lifes experiences or the pursuit of perfection, the two race became close and natural allies, there diverse views allowing a genesis of creativity and union.

[sehracii]

Where other than tryker and who other than Matis folk has OP's in continents other than the main race's in guilds one? Not clear enough? Tryker do not own Op's in Matis (nor would matis folk allow it..), same goes for Fyros and Zorai. Nevertheless all here are familiar with the "war effort" some matisian guilds are doing, all over Atys it seems, having until this moment conquered and established a lvl 250 OP right in a foreign continent. And some trykers are fine with this taking of their land, hell its in the name of the goddess and friendship (max 75 fame it seems), so why not.

I think too much weight is being placed on the location of a guild's hall. It really means little in the grand scheme of these happenings. Many of the "Matisian" guilds are full of Tryker members, officers, and even high officers who fully condone the collective Karavaneers outpost management. Does a guild only have a right to an outpost in the land where it's hall is located? That's silly.

My own guild, Reapers of the Dark, maintain a lvl 200 outpost in the heart of the Matisian forest. Yet we honor a Tryker as our noble leader, along with a vast contingent of Tryker members. I don't see any cries of "invasion," merely unity and cooperation that will only make us stronger.

Jena's followers have learned to see beyond the various homin forms to live and work together as one entity. Past conflict is simply that; in the past. I know our unity threatens Kamists, but we will not allow our resolve to be broken with your cries of hatred and racism.

Abandon the slander. Stand down, and let Jena's light fill your heart.

[oldmess]

I think too much weight is being placed on the location of a guild's hall. It really means little in the grand scheme of these happenings. Many of the "Matisian" guilds are full of Tryker members, officers, and even high officers who fully condone the collective Karavaneers outpost management. Does a guild only have a right to an outpost in the land where it's hall is located? That's silly.

An excellent point Sehr. My guild as well is primarily known as a Matisian guild, but I am a high officer in that guild and one of our officers is Trykers. There a various and sundry Trykers we count among our members. We are not tokens within that guild; we are respected members/officers.

I find it interesting that one of the main arguments against the Matis is an event that occurred before any our lifetimes (the Tryker enslavement) and one for which they've since renounced their previous actions. So does that means they aren't allow to learn from their mistakes and grow? Seems a bit wrongheaded to my way of thinking.