Ryzom

xenofur, i looked at this from 2h point.
Without increasing Max vs - Increased Protection Factor - add NOTHING
Increasing from 55%->60 is just useless
Because now absorbed damage is limited by "Max vs" values, not protection factor. Currently existing 55% - isn't used... Against dmg 1200 is enough 50% PF..

Maybe dmg absorbtion should be capped not at 95%, but at value (like 900[absolute limit])

This thread scars me. I fear nothing more than the nerf bat.
I'm afraid someone like b00ster1 will influence the devs and the nerf bat will make the game something I no longer wish to play. I do not wish to see players leave like after patch 1.

b00ster1 wrote:Can mob nuke you from 51-52m distance for 3k? Can't. Elem can...
2/3 nukes from max distance and mob die at half way to you/near you without damaging you.

Yes, they can, have been hit for 3900 by a zerx (unnamed/nonboss).

And without using stam/health, ie. fighting on the same terms as the mob, you hit less than half as hard, you said, and have less health, lower resistances, etc. Sounds like you, as well as all the rest of the Level 250 melees, are not REALLY level 250, sounds more like maybe you're around level 120-130, it must be a bug in your identity and advancement screens that says you are higher. You should probably send in a ticket, alerting support to this serious error!

Stop complaining about mages having too much power, it's silly. Without sap, they can do nothing at all, without stam, you do not swing as well or as hard, but you still swing. Elementalists do not have spells as powerful, or with the range of mob specials/NPC spells, they only seem so powerful because Neverax has made fighters so weak. Refocus your attention on the real problem, stop trying to make others as ineffectual as you feel you are.

OOC:

@booster: nvm me, i just found out the whole system is broken either way or there is some kind of undocumented level influence...

thebax wrote:Yes, they can, have been hit for 3900 by a zerx (unnamed/nonboss).

And without using stam/health, ie. fighting on the same terms as the mob, you hit less than half as hard, you said, and have less health, lower resistances, etc. Sounds like you, as well as all the rest of the Level 250 melees, are not REALLY level 250, sounds more like maybe you're around level 120-130, it must be a bug in your identity and advancement screens that says you are higher. You should probably send in a ticket, alerting support to this serious error!

Stop complaining about mages having too much power, it's silly. Without sap, they can do nothing at all, without stam, you do not swing as well or as hard, but you still swing. Elementalists do not have spells as powerful, or with the range of mob specials/NPC spells, they only seem so powerful because Neverax has made fighters so weak. Refocus your attention on the real problem, stop trying to make others as ineffectual as you feel you are.

OOC:

Without sap mages do nothing?

*looks at hp credit*.

What planet you on?

The problem ISN'T the damage the mages do. The problem is the ADVANTAGE that mages who level melee have. This advantage has to be balanced in other ways.

Yes, mages are meant to do more damage - but at the expense of other things (like health). And the reverse is true for melee. But currently, this is not how the game works. A mage can train melee for an advantage. A melee can't train ele for a similar advantage.

What does sap give a meleer compared to what does Health give to a mage?

And as for my views on healing power, that's documented in another post

akicks wrote:Without sap mages do nothing?

*looks at hp credit*.

What planet you on?

The problem ISN'T the damage the mages do. The problem is the ADVANTAGE that mages who level melee have. This advantage has to be balanced in other ways.

Yes, mages are meant to do more damage - but at the expense of other things (like health). And the reverse is true for melee. But currently, this is not how the game works. A mage can train melee for an advantage. A melee can't train ele for a similar advantage.

What does sap give a meleer compared to what does Health give to a mage?

And as for my views on healing power, that's documented in another post

lol, now you're being obtuse on purpose. Sure, a mage can cast (VERY weak for their level) spells using health credit only, just as a melee can us only health credits for weapon stanzas. They are the same in that regard. However, a melee can fulfill a lesser version of his roll without using ANY credits whatsoever, a mage cannot, and using using only range and time credits (providing they are not drawing on a much higher skill in another branch of magic) renders the mage far lesser in power in the comparison between the two, than when both are using credits to their utmost. You are capable of thought (I hope), use that capacity to enhance, not tear down.

OOC:

Sure, a mage can cast (VERY weak for their level)

Spell cost (Single missile lvl 250 = "250"
HP Credit = "-250"
You can cast without time or range credits, using only Sap or HP "fullworth" Single missile spell lvl 250.

With "Time Credits", "Range Credits" and "HP(or Sap) credit" you can cast:
Double missille lvl 250 + 225
Lvl 250 spells cost = 250
Lvl 225 spells cost = 225
----
Overal spell cost = 475

HP Credit = "-250"
Range Credit 15 = "-80"
Time Cast credit = "-160"
----
Overall credits = 490

Double missile lvl250 + lvl225 cost = 475
Credits using only HP(Sap)/Time/Range = 490

Can mob nuke you from 51-52m distance for 3k?

Yes, they can, have been hit for 3900 by a zerx

1. It's not melee dmg - it's magic dmg (special attack), and armour currently don't absorb magic damage at all
2. Zerx don't hit you from 50+ meters (don't take in account lag between client and server, when you used speed up, runed 50m away and then dead, even if hit (at server side) was before you runed so far from mob..)

Sounds like you, as well as all the rest of the Level 250 melees, are not REALLY level 250, sounds more like maybe you're around level 120-130, it must be a bug in your identity and advancement screens that says you are higher. You should probably send in a ticket, alerting support to this serious error!

Well.. No comments.
But just for your info, i know subject about which i speak there, very well... because except another 250ish lvls, i have MORE than 1 in melee and also magic (and craft too, incl H.Armours craft), so i hope, i can actually compare difference between classes and difficulty/usefulness of skills,

Stop complaining about mages having too much power, it's silly. Without sap, they can do nothing at all, without stam, you do not swing as well or as hard, but you still swing. Elementalists do not have spells as powerful, or with the range of mob specials/NPC spells, they only seem so powerful because Neverax has made fighters so weak. Refocus your attention on the real problem, stop trying to make others as ineffectual as you feel you are.

Melee was/is not weak, and is comparable with enviroment, but after patch 1 - crafting need some improvement, and like devs stated - they "forget" to reduce some magic stats, after reducing mobs dmg/etc in PostPatch1fix

I'm afraid someone like b00ster1 will influence the devs and the nerf bat

If you have noticed - i'm trying to explain difference/difficulties/too big advantage which have figthers/magicians.
It's not solo game, but why elem can easy lvl up till 250, but melee is even uncomparable weaker.
Keyword there is not "nerf", but "balance".

@booster: nvm me, i just found out the whole system is broken either way or there is some kind of undocumented level influence...

Xenofure, system isn't broken but have level<->qlt influence.
Like armour Qlt210 with PF 50%/Max vs pierce 500 - would not stop 500 dmg if mob lvl above 210 hit you for 1000 dmg.. Protection PF<->Max vs works only when Armour Qlt >= Mob lvl...
When "Armour Qlt" < Mob lvl then "Armour unabsorbed damage" = "Mob lvl" - "Armour qlt" (if wear q210 armour against q250 cuttler, armour absorb damage as for q210 cuttler and damage above (40 in current example) between A.Qlt and M.Lvl- player take unabsorbed. (If q210 cuttler hit 400, q250 hit 900, and armour stats are q210, PF = 50, Max vs = 600 - armour will absord 50% of 400, and damage difference (900-400 = 500) in current example - will be unabsorbed..

So overall dmg (in current example) 700 (200 + 500)
Eg (real ig). in Q210 armour, with ~500 Max vs - G.Cuttler hit for more than 800 dmg

1) Booster, the zerx was the only specific example I could think of for damage, and it served it's purpose, as 3900 is greater than the 3000 you asked about. I have been one-shot killed by NPC casters at ranges between 200-300 meters, though I do not remember the exact damage amount. Drop it, mob specials/NPC spells are far more powerful than Homin casters are allowed. Period.

2) Your argument about mages using credits differently in no way counters my own in comparing fighter and mage stanzas. Fighters can operate at half effectiveness absolutely free, a caster operates with zero effectiveness absolutely free, it's that simple.

3) Mages are not over-powered, fighters are under-powered. There is no logical reason why any Homin combatant should not be able to prevail against any mob of an equal level, so long as their equipment is choice or better. This is not to be applied to named or boss mobs, as they render excellent/supreme equipment and mats, as opposed to the basic/fine ones.
It should not matter whether they are a fighter or caster, same level=same base health, dodge/parry, and magical resistance, or they are not the same level (this is assuming that all mobs have melee-level Health/dodge/parry/resistances, which are the best allowed to homins). If a Q250 HA suit of fine quality can give you a total of 900 to max resistance (around +300 to each damage type) Then a level 250 unamed mob should never have more than 900 total melee resistance, whether equally divided, or all against one damage type. That sort of thing should be the only difference. If the actual numbers are different, please adjust accordingly.

Either you are equal to a mob of your level when equiped with average gear, regardless of your current role, or you are not actually functioning as well as your level would indicate, in short, you are not actually that level, but a lesser one. If you are equiped with excellent gear, no unnamed mob of equal level should be able to withstand you, and with supreme, not only should victory against an unnamed mob of your level be assured, it should be easy (hence the word "supreme").

OOC :

1. That was specific example of specific attack (not "usual" hitting) - there's difference.
2. Short conclusion (aka IMO):
a) Melee dmg in PVE/comparing with PvE * = Ok
b) Melee dmg <-> Mob HP ** = Ok
c) Ele dmg in PvE *** = Too big
d) Healing **** = Too big
e) Protection in PvE against mob ***** = Too small

* (don't count Mob/NPC specific attacks, NPC with equipment which players can't buy/craft)
** (for "usual" aggro. [except PR] )
***(2-3 casts for most of lvl 240-255+ aggro mobs [except PR] )
****(Healing exceed max possible HP amount, restore to full HP from "dead state" - is too much)
*****(Armour need serious improving. If melee can stay longer alive - he does enough dmg to kill mob relative fast)

Note: All writed above is applicable/tested for/at players/mobs with/using lvls above 125-150

PS.

a caster operates with zero effectiveness absolutely free, it's that simple.

Single missile using ONLY HP Credits OR Sap Credits, without affecting range or time cast - isn't "Zero effectiveness", is, how i assume, what was supposed to be from start, another way - what is meaning (in wide range, in elemental magic) of single missile after getting double - just "finish mob killing" when it have almost no hp left?).
"First 'In test' edition about changes in Elem. Magic, had one important point - there was one change (removed in 2nd 'In Test' edition) where single missile would be more effective over identical time period .

As Booster is seemingly not a native speaker of English, it occurs to me that that may be the reason for his lack of comprehension. There is no fault there, he is doing a better job than I would in his native tongue.

I will simplify:

Equal level should mean equal power, whether you are fighter, mage, or mob.

Until such time as Mobs/NPCs are lowered in power, healing should certainly not be. Comparing Healing to Elemental power is foolish. An accurate comparison is that of Healing vs. Mob/NPC damage.

Many your agruments seem (although it is difficult to decipher your method of writing) to operate from the assumption that in a fighter vs. elementalist fight, the fighter is at a disadvantage. So what? Look at any of the polls, read the forums, speak to your fellow players in-game, only a tiny minority actually WANT PvP, many more do not want it to exist at all, though a nearly equal number can do without it, but are willing to tolerate it.

The only part of your posts I agree with are those regarding the max absorption limits on armors needing to be increased. The rest are self-defeating, and fall apart when scrutinized.


OOC: