PvP, the devil: or (to P or not to P?)

[xenofur]

if you walk through an area that is known for a high crimerate and indeed shows up a warning as soon as you enter it then it is consentual, else you'd call a taxi to avoid it

[zhidao]

Ah ok, explanation of that, hehe every time a pleasure to type that down here.

Well, first, I need to admit that my translation of concentual wasn`t as good as it should be as it was typed not correct earlier in the thread.
Your are absolutely right with saying that the rootsPvP is consensual for the given explanation.
It is an area declared to be free of any law of the 4 nations. Reasons for that can be seen in chapter two announcement.
So anyone who dare to enter Umbra an Nexus knows and accepts this given situation of risking the possibility to meet up Homin Bandits, or better someone who might kill you there without warning. That is a simple fact against which nobody could give an argument here. (If we Homins want that or not isn`t subject of consideration here, we have to deal with this situation now)

But now the problem with these circumstances. Every time such a murder happens, a crime against the Homin nations take place and should have consequenses.
Unfortunately there is a lack of consequenses here on Atys for such actions. Worse is, that those murderers expect to be treated as common homins elsewhere on Atys (in non-PvP zones), hopes for heal if beeing killed, hopes for getting equipment and levelpartners, demands to be allowed to enter the cities of hominkind, wants kind discussionpartners and so on.
We had discussions about bandit life recently on leanon forum.
But here is the discrepancy in the situation. You cannot kill members of Homin nations in a law-free zone and expect to be treated as law-abiding Homin elsewhere among homin civilisation.
Just an example. If you kill a human on the law-free sea you cannot expect that the nation/s of earth would hesitate to punish you if they can proof that you have commited the crime as the victim belongs to a nation that have laws and as soon as you dare to cross there border you will be arrested.
It`s the same here on Atys.

Because of these lack of consequences at the moment, discussions about PvP arise again and again because Homins who are not friends of that kind of fight and do not react with PvP with a smile in there faces cannot understand and even accept that they are killed in form of murder.

Further, there is no reason for Homins of different nations to kill each other at the moment as the reason is not given yet.
The inter-nation-conflict could be another explanation for PvP in Umbra (beside funevents of PvP Friends of course).
Exceptions may arise in case of war between guilds, but this should usually not inflict other Homins (accidents may happen but can be treated accordingly).
Don`t forget, there is peace between the fractions and nations, at least for now. Our enemy is still the kitin.

What concerns the region itself, you should not forget that Umbra has the only 150er and 2 of 3 200er regions and harvester of a given quality should go into the region they belong to, to spray extraction amounts over the regions and reduce reduction of the Kamitoleranz to the possible minimum.
(I deliberately did not mention the superspots down there as they are there to cause conflict about property - still the easiest form of creating discrepancies is to give people material everyone claims to be their own instead of sharing it - the dominate principle of materialism which controls most Humans).

I hope this makes the problem around Umbra a bit more visible to those who love PvP.

[iwojimmy]

Another game that I see pvp worked in?

Risk Your Life.

If you're interested in learning how PvP can work in a mmorpg, try out RYL.

In its purest form this is how it work:

They have 2 races, human and demon.

They have 5 islands. 1 island of each race is "newbie" island and restricted terrritory for that race, the other race can't enter those 2 islands.

The next 2 islands are race owned, where the major towns are for that race, for but not restricted to the other race, so the other race can invade these islands if they wish to.

The final 5th island is neutral territory, where both race have equal towns and footing on the island and it's a constant battle to take control.

Human are free to attack demons anywhere anytime and demons can attack humans anywhere anytime on 3 of the 5 islands (with 2 being race restricted).

You can intitiate dueling for member of the same race for PvP'ing players of the same race.

There's also an Arena where there's a constant battle for 3 towers between the 2 race. If a race have control of all 3 towers, any players of that race guarding the tower will earn points that they can use to buy rewards with.

They also have 0 dialogues between the 2 races in game. Demons can't talk to Human and vice versa.

So, althought RYL is pretty lacking in content and the mobs are lame and its PvE is basically a grind-fest, the PvP portion of the game worked quite well.

dont know how much RYL evolved from when I was in the beta tests, but combat on the contested island was like a slideshow, only the area effect nukers, and healers could achieve anything, and while I was trying to get some levels on the advanced island of my race (near its starter city), some high level enemies kept coming over and nuking us.. sure, if the entire player base got together, and had some higher levels passing through help out, we could drive them away, until they respawned and came back.
Dont try to tell me RYL PvP is a worthwhile model.
the player shop was nice tho

[iwojimmy]

. Neutral guilds not loyal to any nation needs to be considered as enemies as soon as they capture an op in the lands or are get in the nations way in the roots.

Why is that ?
I want to be a Homin Champion, not a Kami or Karavan Champion.

How is this for an idea..Non concensual(sp?) PvP.. but with consequences

the way it works is.. the attacker MUST formally challenge/say they are attacking.. no stealth attacks allowed.. the challenged party has the opportunity to put on their amps/armour etc, and then say if they are willing or not. Even if they arent willing, the attacker can cancel or continue, but if the challenger wins, their fame is affected, with all the factions that victim has fame with..( If the defender wins, good on them ) I like the idea of it being proportional to the victims fame - so if you kill someone beloved of the trykers, you will get a significant fame penalty with the trykers, you may even get fame bonuses if your victim has negative fame (how to get in good with the Woven Bridles ) however this means that new players can be picked on with relative impunity.
For fully consenting duels/battles, no penalty would be incurred. If the Griefers cant get their kicks without stealth attacks, maybe have a 'post-death' option..
/target "person who just killed me" /report as murderer.. kind of thing

[zhidao]

hehe iwojimmy,
you are first a homin champion as kami and karavan was not meant to have an overall role in the first place. Their role is in backround.

Neutral does refer to no loyalty to any of the 4 races.
Look, capturing an op in witherings without their agreement (meaning without a mission of them) should annoy the Zorai a little bit or at least give them alert that conquerers have entered the land (wether the capture took place because of a mission from Matis or without mission is not very interesting then). Fame will get lost with loyal tribes of Zorai, with Zorai themselves, perhaps with Fyros and Kami too the rate of loosing fame could differ between those groups.

I have just given a clue of a possibility how the Outpost-PvP could get a little sense based on story.

I mentioned earlier, that my translation of consensual was wrong and I don`t mean that at all just to make that clear.
I think consensual PvP make only sense between honorable Homins who want to have a small challenge or revange for something in an honorable way.

Things like outpost should get an overall meaning behind them. So I explained, that it should be missionbased, and PvP regulates about crossing of missions of different nations.
I didn`t want to go too deep into that possible way as the post would have got too long to be read of anyone. If someone wish it I will do so of course. Behind the idea is a simple goal. Giving both groups of PvP fractions -the lovers of PvP and those who dislike it - that what they want.
Good PvP to the lovers, and a good reason for it to those who dislike it. I believe, that both groups will so find much fun in the complete system and will go involved even deeper into the mystic story of the Saga of Ryzom (if that could ever be possible ) . For me it appears to be that what is called "the way of the kings" in German. It might be right might be wrong, well its imagination at all atm.

[vinnyq]

dont know how much RYL evolved from when I was in the beta tests, but combat on the contested island was like a slideshow, only the area effect nukers, and healers could achieve anything, and while I was trying to get some levels on the advanced island of my race (near its starter city), some high level enemies kept coming over and nuking us.. sure, if the entire player base got together, and had some higher levels passing through help out, we could drive them away, until they respawned and came back.
Dont try to tell me RYL PvP is a worthwhile model.
the player shop was nice tho

When I beta'ed it, it was pretty smooth. And I played as a ranger and an assasin. I do my fair share of killing also

and Mages are totally helpless if they come upon a meleer with netting ability.

And the first time I saw a demon invasion while I was playing human, I laughed out loud and almost peed my pants. Then I jumped in the fun to try to beat them back.

The cool thing here is I dont get get any penalty if I died from the hand of another player. They have a separte xp/fame system for killing and dying from PvP from the xp system in PvE.

[vutescu]

I bet you a team of lvl 50 can beat a team of lvl 100 if the lvl 50 team is well balanced and work well together as oppose to a lvl 100 team just trying to nuke the enemies to piece.

But keeping proportions, a level 75 team would not be able to beat a lev 125 team. No matter how idiotic they would act. At level 75 you have about 1500 HP assuming ur wearing HP gear. A lev 125 nuke is doing 400 damage without amps. With 2x spell and amps, can blast a player to pieces in a single hit.

what is wrong with having competition in an RPG? isnt that what the online setting is for? to have competition and a social settting???????

You can call a competition when all the players starts in the same time, in the same conditions. You are obviously confused about what RPG means. It stands for Role-Play Game. You have to pretend that you are a character in game and to act like you think that character would. This is how your character would react? Would walk around in a killing spree? This is not RP. This is psycho. If you want to RP a psycho, note that you should delete it after the first death. Or maybe in your RP your character can do a lot of crimes and escape unpunished?
And btw, the homins here are the survivers of a kitin masacre. Usually this kind of people are disgusted of violence. ("we had enough blood on our hands")

Or would you say that PvP is never fun because it involves the idea of one player hurting another player?

The main purpose of the games is *supposed* to be educational. But as long as sex and violence ar the best sold articles on any market, the games are following the line. Yes. The ideea of a human killing another human is what make me to be against pvp.
I've played Starcraft, Warcraft and other RTS's online. There you are fighting with units. Like in chess. Here you are fighting with a toon that represents - basically - the person from the other comp. My toon is me. And you come to hurt me. This sure generate bad feelings, no matter who wins. If you are choosing an oriented PvP game, is ok, even is called RPG. But to choose a RPG and suddenly to be in a middle of a conflict... hmm...

And I think a game like that, where I would have to be constantly watching over my shoulder when I'm doing a mission, where every blue dot is by default an enemy, is not the kind of game I'm interested in playing.
It doesn't matter that every PvP'er isn't necessarily a thirteen year old looking to work out their frustrations because they got picked on in school. Those are the only ones people are going to hear or talk about.

100% agree.

Do you considered it concentual PvP if buy owning an Outpost, you're also accepting the fact that you will have to fight for the Outpost if it is threaten by other players?

So you ask me if i'm willing to become a target because I own someting? The ownership makes me a target? The next step is to kill me for my sword or my armor.

[vinnyq]

Oh boy, I am so going to rip you a new one vut

But keeping proportions, a level 75 team would not be able to beat a lev 125 team. No matter how idiotic they would act. At level 75 you have about 1500 HP assuming ur wearing HP gear. A lev 125 nuke is doing 400 damage without amps. With 2x spell and amps, can blast a player to pieces in a single hit.

All right, I concede this point already! Uncle! Don't hurt me!

You can call a competition when all the players starts in the same time, in the same conditions. You are obviously confused about what RPG means. It stands for Role-Play Game. You have to pretend that you are a character in game and to act like you think that character would.

Roleplaying to me just mean you assumed the role of another character (i.e. a toon called "Fyrx" for a game). Having it be competive playing or co-operativing playing is irrelevant to the defninition. See, when I play counter-strike, I consider myself roleplaying a terrorist or a counter-terrorist. Is that wrong?

What you are talking about, I think, is play-acting, traditional roleplaying, rpg. Sure, role playing games might have start out that way, where players must go beyond the game mechanic and use their imagination to roleplay their characters, but I don't think it has to be taken to that extend for it to be considered "role playing" now-aday (you can thanks Dungeoun Hack and Final Fantasy for that ).

Maybe what they should have done is come up with another accronym for the rpg games that came after the traditional D&D games. Leave "RPG" to the play actors, and come up with a new term for games like Final Fantasy and Fallout, maybe "QG" for quests games

But you get the point I am trying to make, I hope.

The main purpose of the games is *supposed* to be educational. But as long as sex and violence ar the best sold articles on any market, the games are following the line. Yes. The ideea of a human killing another human is what make me to be against pvp.

I didn't know that! Games are supposed to be educational? I thought games are supposed to be fun! I have been fooled

So you ask me if i'm willing to become a target because I own someting? The ownership makes me a target? The next step is to kill me for my sword or my armor.

I can't loot you for your sword and armor. But I can fight you for the Outposts. Owning a sword and armor is not concentual pvp because there's NO PVP'ing for sword and armor. We all know this.

I am not asking if you're willing to become a target because you own something. I am asking if you think it's concentual (as in you agree) to take part in PvP, knowing that owning an Outpost means other people can fight you for it.

That, to me, is concentual.

Is it a good or bad idea that Nevrax is forcing it to be "concentual pvp"? that's for you to decide, but it's a different debate altogether.

[petej]

Originaly posted by vutescu

And btw, the homins here are the survivers of a kitin masacre. Usually this kind of people are disgusted of violence. ("we had enough blood on our hands")

Earth is invaded by aliens who do their best to wipe out humankind , all the nations of the world gear thier economys to produce massive amounts of weapons and armour to combat the invaders. All races stand side by side in this epic strugle and eventualy humankind prevails but the planet is left decimated with few resources. The Russians know theres a rich oil deposit in Romania and decide to build an outpost there so they can more easily exploit those resources....

Will the Romanians welcome them with open arms and let them take resources they sorely need for themselves or take up their plentifull weapons again and fight for what is theirs ?

(sorry if ive made this too personal its not my intention to cause offence , but to illustrate a point in a "real-world" context)

[madnak]

if you walk through an area that is known for a high crimerate and indeed shows up a warning as soon as you enter it then it is consentual, else you'd call a taxi to avoid it

That's absurd. Consent means nothing if that's true. If I'm walking down the street that doesn't mean I want to be attacked. Personally I live in Brooklyn and sometimes I do walk through "risky" areas for one reason or another (for one thing I can't exactly afford to take the taxi everywhere I go). That doesn't mean I'm "asking for anything I get." Honestly. Some people have to live in those areas because of income.

Understanding the risk is not the same as giving consent.