Do we really need PvP?

[petej]

Sorry, I don't see your point. In the time frame you give, you should have been able to get around 1000 more mats, and not die, especially if the death occured while simply travelling between spots. I maintain my position.

So looking at this the other way the real problem is theres not enough PvP in the PvP regions to make it just as hostile as the patrolled regions :0

[drizzeth]

Sorry, I don't see your point. In the time frame you give, you should have been able to get around 1000 more mats, and not die, especially if the death occured while simply travelling between spots. I maintain my position.

You do realise that when all the current pvp zones are being removed they all will be like the non-pvp prime roots zones? read full of KP and aggro mobs?

So while current PR diggers that learned to sneak past the KP and aggro have worked for that knowledge(read invested time to get to know the exact routes and times of that) others see it as an impossibility.

Frankly i dont think its fair to make the work of the evading PR diggers obsolete by making non-pvp areas easyer, but maybe a middleground/compromise could be met in finetuning non-pvp area aggro and KP balances.

[drizzeth]

So looking at this the other way the real problem is theres not enough PvP in the PvP regions to make it just as hostile as the patrolled regions :0

Very well said

I do think we are nearing a core of the problem here with that.

[vutescu]

The post was about PvP? Hmm.

Please note that a PvE player wouldn't mind being killed by a KP / aggro but mind being nuked by another player. No matter what, the actions of animals are previsible (aka watch them long enough and you'll find the movement pattern) but the players are not.

You can't have neutrality when you are in PvP area. Basically all the blue dots are enemy, and when one is in radar range you better be prepared (to die, run, or kill). And to be sure you wont get killed, you better strike first.

This is ruining all the beauty. For me at least. I am not here to nuke people or be nuked. I'm here to develop my characted how I like, when and where I like. PvP or PK is at least useless because it does not give anything. No xp, no dappers, no fame. Nothing. Nada. What's the point of it then? Why should I bother if I don't get anything usefull for my character?

[drizzeth]

The post was about PvP? Hmm.

Please note that a PvE player wouldn't mind being killed by a KP / aggro but mind being nuked by another player. No matter what, the actions of animals are previsible (aka watch them long enough and you'll find the movement pattern) but the players are not.

You can't have neutrality when you are in PvP area. Basically all the blue dots are enemy, and when one is in radar range you better be prepared (to die, run, or kill). And to be sure you wont get killed, you better strike first.

This is ruining all the beauty. For me at least. I am not here to nuke people or be nuked. I'm here to develop my characted how I like, when and where I like. PvP or PK is at least useless because it does not give anything. No xp, no dappers, no fame. Nothing. Nada. What's the point of it then? Why should I bother if I don't get anything usefull for my character?

Above posts are regarding the argument of the non-pvp camp about forcing you into pvp areas for said non-pvp content, read materials. Then we came upon the fact that those people dont see the non-pvp roots areas as a viable option because of the ammount of aggro/KP or other factors that make collecting materials harder in their experience as doing the same in designed pvp areas.

So in turn that means people are forced into pvp-roots because of the ammount of aggro/KP or their experience as it being nigh impossible to do the same in designed non-pvp areas.(which are there to be used by people not consent with pvp).

To simplify: What drives people not consent with pvp into pvp-areas?
Do they have a choice? Do they feel that choice is a realistic one?
What can be done to make that choice feel more realistic?

Regarding shoot first ask questions later..I never ever started with a hostile feeling towards any blue dot in pvp areas.I had my arguments with people in pvp areas, they where resolved with words. If i get nuked in PR (which never happened) i just take it as it comes and /ignore the person or come back with my guild if they keep being a nuisance.(or choose to go to non-pvp area if i really dont feel like putting up with any of that.

[troll16]

The post was about PvP? Hmm.

Please note that a PvE player wouldn't mind being killed by a KP / aggro but mind being nuked by another player. No matter what, the actions of animals are previsible (aka watch them long enough and you'll find the movement pattern) but the players are not.

You can't have neutrality when you are in PvP area. Basically all the blue dots are enemy, and when one is in radar range you better be prepared (to die, run, or kill). And to be sure you wont get killed, you better strike first.

This is ruining all the beauty. For me at least. I am not here to nuke people or be nuked. I'm here to develop my characted how I like, when and where I like. PvP or PK is at least useless because it does not give anything. No xp, no dappers, no fame. Nothing. Nada. What's the point of it then? Why should I bother if I don't get anything usefull for my character?

PvP is about tension that is where part of the fun is, not knowing if your going to be killed or not (not every enemy will attack you), always having to be on the look out for bad situations. Sneaking around trying to avoid aggro and others sneaking around looking for aggro.

PvP is not really about sitting there relaxing admiring the scenery.

In full PvP everyone has consented to be a target and so PvP is good fun there's no doubt about it, but it is just a playing style. It's not much fun killing a target that does not want to fight or are too low in level to be any challenge but it does happen.

With WoW when players playing PvP servers get fed up with not being able to go to certain regions because they are constantly being killed. They change servers to PvE or RP. But the problem with Ryzom is that if you do get fed up with something that PvP restricts your playing style with, there is no where for you to go.

[drizzeth]

PvP is about tension that is where part of the fun is, not knowing if your going to be killed or not (not every enemy will attack you), always having to be on the look out for bad situations. Sneaking around trying to avoid aggro and others sneaking around looking for aggro.

PvP is not really about sitting there relaxing admiring the scenery.

In full PvP everyone has consented to be a target and so PvP is good fun there's no doubt about it, but it is just a playing style. It's not much fun killing a target that does not want to fight or are too low in level to be any challenge but it does happen.

With WoW when players playing PvP servers get fed up with not being able to go to certain regions because they are constantly being killed. They change servers to PvE or RP. But the problem with Ryzom is that if you do get fed up with something that PvP restricts your playing style with, there is no where for you to go.

How can you say there is no where to go when i think agreeing there is a place designed for people that are not consent with the same content is a Large step towards at least solving that problem of the anti-pvp camp.

Could you please awnser these questions:

What drives people not consent with pvp into pvp-areas?
Do they have a choice? Do they feel that choice is a realistic one?
What can be done to make that choice feel more realistic?

Non pvp areas are a large mechanism to give players the choice to be or not be consent with pvp. If nothing is done to make the choice feel realistic enough for non-pvp players to be in non-pvp PR then that limits the game design largely about consentual pvp and having a choice.

I mean to me it doesnt matter so much if *i* think non-pvp areas are too hard, to me it matters what people feel that they are forced into pvp PR think can be done to make the non pvp PR a really viable option that gives them the opportunity to not have to deal with pvp.

EDIT: i think everyone agrees that Outposts should have diplomatic options or other options as purely pvp, i think it will come aswell but that its a mater of development time available and needing to add them to give a ray of hope to people that have been waiting so long for them.

[troll16]

How can you say there is no where to go when i think agreeing there is a place designed for people that are not consent with the same content is a Large step towards at least solving that problem of the anti-pvp camp.

Could you please awnser these questions:

What drives people not consent with pvp into pvp-areas?
Do they have a choice? Do they feel that choice is a realistic one?
What can be done to make that choice feel more realistic?

No where to go = no other server which Ryzom has which would suit there needs better (now if there is a system intergrated that has no effect on them then this point would not be an issue).



What drives people not consent with pvp into pvp-areas?

I take it you mean non-PvP players going into PvP areas. From my understanding of what I have read in these forums, the obvious reason would be to get the best materials to craft with (feel free to correct me if this is wrong).


Do they have a choice? Do they feel that choice is a realistic one?

If I'm right about the materials then I would say they probably feel they have no choice, they either go into PvP areas to get materials or go without.


What can be done to make that choice feel more realistic?

The only way I see that a PvE player can fully play Ryzom in a PvE style is by having all areas as PvE or PvP (players choice) but that throws up alot more issues.



One part of Ryzom is exploration and if lands are PvP only, then PvE players who really feel that they do not want to engage in PvP may feel they are not able to explore these regions.

[drizzeth]

No where to go = no other server which Ryzom has which would suit there needs better (now if there is a system intergrated that has no effect on them then this point would not be an issue).



What drives people not consent with pvp into pvp-areas?

I take it you mean non-PvP players going into PvP areas. From my understanding of what I have read in these forums, the obvious reason would be to get the best materials to craft with (feel free to correct me if this is wrong).


Do they have a choice? Do they feel that choice is a realistic one?

If I'm right about the materials then I would say they probably feel they have no choice, they either go into PvP areas to get materials or go without.


What can be done to make that choice feel more realistic?

The only way I see that a PvE player can fully play Ryzom in a PvE style is by having all areas as PvE or PvP (players choice) but that throws up alot more issues.



One part of Ryzom is exploration and if lands are PvP only, then PvE players who really feel that they do not want to engage in PvP may feel they are not able to explore these regions.

Aye i think one of the limits in choices we have is how the game is designed and planned features, as we are talking about a promised and planned feature.

This just to establish that it will be nigh impossible to impose full pvp or full pve upon any group of the community.

So we gotta work with what weve got here, and those are the non pvp areas. Changing them into a viable option.

I agree that there will aways be parts of content that will be missed by either players that never go into PVE areas and players that never go into PVP areas. Such as fame with certain tribes and indeed the exploration part. I think we can do our best to think what can be done within the options we have while realising it is impossible to please every single person about every single content/gameplay detail.

Also to solve problems with a divide upon opinions as large as this discussion means that neither group can have it 100% their way. Another reason why nor full PVE nor full PVP would ever work as sollution.

EDIT:For example people that are completely content with how things are and are planned a large compromise would be if in fact non-pvp area would be toned down to make it more realistic to people that think its not a viable option. It would mean a large impact upon obsoletion of their hard work for their earned knowledge about the KP routes.

I think one thing is for certain and that is non-pvp areas fail in their function of catering for non-pvp consent people. That the way is see it is a broken game mechanism, so it should be fixed. No matter what my personal opinion is about the ability of those areas to cater for the non-pvp consentual people. If the majority of the target audience feels it fails in catering for them, i think that its an important thing to establish and indication to it needing changes.

Then again, as Pete mentioned, i think Nevrax expected to be pvp areas at least the same level of danger as the non pvp areas, as it turned out however use of pvp in the therefore designed areas is so little that the level of danger is not comparable. In the intention of the design that would mean the broken mechanism is the use of pvp being too little to balance the areas to the same level of danger involved.

[rushin]

Sorry, I don't see your point. In the time frame you give, you should have been able to get around 1000 more mats, and not die, especially if the death occured while simply travelling between spots. I maintain my position.

of course, heaven forbid you might actually die or have to work to do something in this game. why bother with digging at all - there should be a button you can press that deposits 440 mats in your bag. right? If they removed every single mob in wastelands i still couldn't get that many mats in a hour, unlike kipee mull et al you have to walk a long way to get what you want there.

and if you had been digging when umbra had 2/4 kincher guarding every portal, patrols, bosses with 100m aggro range, etc then i dont think you would have any complaints about the fact they are PvP now. as Pete said the problem actually is their isn't enough PvP going on to balance the almost total removal of challenge (all the mobs) that happened when it was introduced.