Ryzom

All the Kami arguements and suchlike, about protecting nature and fitting in to it... fall over in a heap and crash and burn when you consider that Atys itself is a created artifact, an engineered world. The Kami, with their blind obedience to a faulty first premise, attempts to fit homins into a pre-set category and plan, and limited ability to deal with changed circumstances ( the Goo ), are far more 'machine-like' than the technological Karavan - who even their enemies (in fact mostly their enemies ) say display human qualities such as ambition and greed.

The Kami seem like servants to an Artificial Intelligence, and like fire, they would be a good servant but a terrible master.

[sorry for derailing but i'm a little concerned]

why is this thread left in the general forum when another was moved almost straight away (and the request made to move it back denied) for containing IC posts?

some consistency please, and maybe an explanation.. 'cause the only one in my head is quite unpleasant.

And for the record i dont think this one should be moved either.

rushin wrote:some consistency please, and maybe an explanation.. 'cause the only one in my head is quite unpleasant.

I'd guess because the other one started as clearly "IC" whereas this one just has some IC posts in it, but is being given generally "OOC" replies?

@Pero: Your post is interesting as a piece of Karavaneer perspective, but my statement that neither faction is evil was 100% OOC.

On that note, this thread isn't inherently a roleplaying thread so IMO it does belong in General. Massive potential for interspersed claims of "my god is better than your god" notwithstanding.

rushin wrote:[sorry for derailing but i'm a little concerned]

why is this thread left in the general forum when another was moved almost straight away (and the request made to move it back denied) for containing IC posts?

some consistency please, and maybe an explanation.. 'cause the only one in my head is quite unpleasant.

I think it was a great move. That thread was started as an IC post and largely continued that way. For more than a year, scores of threads announcing outpost attacks have turned extremely ugly and many got so bad they had to be deleted. Pretty much all of them have gone bad here in the General. In contrast, TS's "outpost attack announcement" post moved to the Saga forum stayed very civil and rp.

This thread was all OOC until the fourth page, then some rp got mixed in.

Katriell I was more addressing your point of view that by saying something was OOC that it must be correct or have more informational value. Well...okay... I made that last bit up, I did it more for the challenge and fun of writing it. However, we do not know if one or both groups are "evil". We do not know anything. We know some of the lore that has been presented and we do not even know if that is an accurate depiction of Atys.

We can look at some of the interviews and make some assumptions but not ones that are very reliable. As we can all plainly see, the original plans for Atys are not being followed. When you add in new owners, new plans, new goals the future (and even the past) becomes so convoluted that any statement about it is only the perception of that individual.

As for deciding which side someone should choose. I think that if a player is really concerned, a faction will find them, there will be a calling. If it is a struggle then it is not yet time to declare for a faction. Ride the fence until you know you are a Karavan or a Kami and you want to be a part of that community. This is of course only my advice for people who are interested in the lore and such, otherwise it is prolly best to just go with whatever is the most convenient or fits in the style of play you want for the next couple of months.

danolt wrote: However, we do not know if one or both groups are "evil". We do not know anything. We know some of the lore that has been presented and we do not even know if that is an accurate depiction of Atys.

Which is exactly why we can say at this point that neither are good or evil, whether the devs will choose to make one 'evil' or 'good' remains to be seen. Though personally I'd think it would be a shame to have it happen, it's far more interesting and dynamic to have lore with tons of shades of grey then clearly black and white. What's the fun in that? In this way it gives the player freedom to make up their own ideologies as you've done , and make their own way, their own story.

I've been reading up on the lore for a while and I can say that definately at heart Hazira is a Kamist. Because she believes in the care of all things on Atys as well as homins. She does not simply use and manipulate plant life much like her brethen, but she nurses them and coaxes them to her way, she cares for plant life in a way some of her childhood friends found unsettling..
But at this time she is still wary of the Kami and a bit afraid of them, she still has reverence for the Karavan but doubts Jena's existence and Her intentions, grows slowly within..

At least that's the story now, but it may change who knows?

EDIT: Forgot I wanted to point out that Ma-Duk is a she, a goddess form just like Jena, but whithout iconization unlike Jena ^^.

huntar wrote:All the Kami arguements and suchlike, about protecting nature and fitting in to it... fall over in a heap and crash and burn when you consider that Atys itself is a created artifact, an engineered world. The Kami, with their blind obedience to a faulty first premise, attempts to fit homins into a pre-set category and plan, and limited ability to deal with changed circumstances ( the Goo ), are far more 'machine-like' than the technological Karavan - who even their enemies (in fact mostly their enemies ) say display human qualities such as ambition and greed.

The Kami seem like servants to an Artificial Intelligence, and like fire, they would be a good servant but a terrible master.

((OOC mode now))

Where does the lore talk about this bit? I can't say I've ever read it, though I confess that I could have missed it. If it's in the writings of either the Kami or tha Karavan, it is obviously suspect (IC). If it's something Nevrax/GF have written, then it can be taken at face value.

The other parts about Ma Duk appearing 60 years ago and the Kami/etc wanting homins to become "one with the planet" or so to speak, only serve to reinforce what I posted Consider the relgious world-view that the planet is a form of god, that nature is to be worshipped, and that while a great capacity for self-recovery exists that it is possible to upset the balance and cause long-lasting harm. With the numbers of fauna that exist, the number of homins undoubtedly should be greater ... we just have low server populations because we have a smaller playerbase

Ma Duk and the Kami and their interaction with the planet and homins remind me a lot of how Obiwan Kenobi describes the Force: an energy field created by all living things that can be sensed and manipulated, and even abused (again, that's nothing new in terms of religious practices). The Kami take any form necessary to complete their intended goal as they manipulate that energy field for the betterment of the planet. Surely Ma Duk could do the same?

The planet continuing to grow and change, forcing homins to adapt, is only a part of nature -- you change with it, you grow, you adapt, or you die. That's another reason the Karavan stand out as just out-of-place with their machines. They are trying to force certain things upon the planet, upon a living entity. How many things today in the real world would be so much better if people didn't try to "force" nature into doing certain things (such as medicines that treat one thing yet have dozens of potential side effects, as opposed to reinforcing the body's own natural built-in healing mechanisms)?

If any of you have ever investigated setting up and maintaining a marine aquarium, you will understand what I mean about balance and interaction between all life in the ecosystem, and how it doesn't take much to upset that balance, even though there can be a great deal of buffer built-in.

Do I personally subscribe to the belief that nature is to be worshipped? Nah. But I do think it should be respected and not abused. In this game situation specifically, it seems the Kami are willing to give the homins just enough rope to hang themselves if they're not careful, but also enough to be able to adapt to the changes. (Note, that I don't see OP drills as fitting into the lore very well except, perhaps, for the Karavan). That seems to be the overall direction Nevrax/whoever intended for this game, which can lead to a lot of interesting content.

The Karavan are distrusted because they are outsiders with strange technology that does conflict with the natural energies on Atys. They make no appearances of even trying to integrate with this world. And since they actively fight the Kami and the spiritual essence of the world itself -- admittedly, perhaps out of ignorance -- it can only be assumed that they have selfish motives in mind, motives that are not directly intended to benefit life on this planet, and should be looked upon with suspicion.

Also it seems to me according to the lore on the front page, that the Karavan may have once tried to control the Kami to their own ends, but found that didn't work too well... Therefore demonizing the cute things and trying to defeat what they can't manipulate hmmm...

xfluffee wrote:stuff

Interesting... My observations:

You say the Karavan are outsiders. so are homin, they belong in Atys just as much as Karavan do.

You say they may have selfish motives and do not care for life other than their own. While I agree with you on this, I view them as just another Homin race with more advanced technology. In my opinion thats what any other homin race would be like if they got their hands on the blueprints for them shiny toys the Karavan have.

I dont think either really gives a crap what hapens to homins. we are just cheap labor to them.

I am notincing so far that be it for RP reasons or whatever some people are really fanatical of their faction. may be the word fanatic is a bit extreme but you know what I mean. everything about their faction is Great/good/acceptable, everything about the other faction is Horrible/bad/unacceptable.

I've also noticed a more casual group of Kami/Karavan. they seem to have joined either side just because they dont want to be neutral. they dont seem to be religious and they take this God stuff very lightly if at all.

I consider my self of the former type. I dont want to be neutral. I will be Joining the Karavan, but I will not atempt to justify nor defend this decision. I simply dislike Kami more than I dislike Karavan for some wierd reason. I will not be worshiping any one. In fact I do not woship, I find it primitive.

Finally I think it would be sweet if homins got a hold of Karavan technology and used it to kick both Kara and Kami out of Atys.

Well enough of that faction talk. as far as my game experience so far, I've met some really cool people. they helped far beyond what I would expect from strangers. I was given advice, armor, jewels, weapons and even a trek. neither of this players promoted a guild or faction in our chat. they simply wanted to help a newb face in the main land. I played EVE and SWG before Ryzom and this was by far the most caring player base I've seen. in either of the previous games you were likely to be told "STFU n00b" or "can I have your stuff" when you had a problem. I remember in SWG some one scamed me out of my speeder on my fist hour of play lol. compare that to the reception I got in Ryzom, like night and day.

Now I got to go to the Arispotle guild forums to find me a good Karavan guild with players in the Americas time zone.