On the ending of Ryzom and other stories

[cloudy97]

_That_ would be something fantastic, if executed correctly. I'll probobly be spending the next week or so trying to think of a game that could do that. The closest thing that I can think of in an online game is the leveling in RtCW: Enemy Territory, but when that system is applied to a persistant world, players want their gains to stay from one round to another, and you end up with something like WWII Online. It would seem easier to go a little farther down the reasons for leveling and try and remove that impulse to compare one's characters to another player's. Unfortunatly, that would require the removal of PvP - since that is by nature comparing characters - and would place much more work on the devs to make a player-like opponent/faction that could be engaged at any level for a relevent amount of reward. Or perhaps it could be set up so you can do anything at any level, but it requires siginifigantly less percision/time/materials at higher levels, example: a level 1 crafter can make the items as a level 250 crafter, but it takes much more time for the items to be made. The goal in all this shifting would be that of making the player have no motivation to advance their character except that of having to work less; time spent vs. time saved. That level 1 character in the example might be willing to wait if they don't mind the grind, but if they wanted to wait less, they would need to impart effort. If they got tired of grinding, they would just go and make things slowly for a while to cool down, perhaps even advancing slowly just with that casual crafting. The weird thing is that you don't want to remove the grind/leveling, as players will want something that seperates the dedicated from the casual, but you don't want to make the grind ironclad, as that will shake away the casual players.

The closest thing I have encountered was a Neverwinter Nights PW where you started out as level 2 and most people never reached level 3 due to the low low low XP rewards. The benefits of such a system was that a new player could get straight into the "high-level" action since all encounters were balanced for level 2 teams.

Instead of levels you could gain money, social power and better equipment. But 2 newbies could easily assasin a long-time player (the PW had permadeath). I think that would only work in small private servers and not in MMO's since it require lots of work from DMs.

[etrusan]

This is the second time something has been attributed to me along the lines of infinity which I never said at any time, so I guess I need to set the record straight.

For clarity, I am going to highlight what I said:

I could be wrong on this, but besides the infinity debacle, I don't think anything major in this game has happened in the past six months (as far back as I have read in the forums). By major, I mean a serious shift in power.

I honestly do not know how you are reading that to mean infinity is the most powerful guild on atys. Reading it for a second time I do not see it. Here is what I said, reworded. An event happened. This event involved various guilds. One of these guilds was infinity. During this event a shift in power occured. Hence, the "infinity debacle".

I could have cared less when I did play who was the proverbial top dog, because it is none of buisness and I did not (and still don't) care. Some people are into being in the biggest and best and worrying about such matters, that's not my style. I am more interested in the game mechanics and how it affects every player.

Politics are very heavy in this game. The average guild member may not see it quite as much, but any guild leader who reads this will agree. There are ppolitics going on constantly. Since Ep2 I can't log in without dealing with them. My skills have been pretty much been put on hold due to them. Yes I'm a roleplayer, so I immerse myself in that kind of play and I enjoy it. The politics are there to get involved in. You just have to poke your nose around some.

There is a difference between me saying: "there are no politicks" and “politicks aren’t very important in this game with respect to other games”. The first says politicks do not exist in any fashion. The second implies that politicks exist, they may even be important in day to day functions, but they aren’t as important as other games.

Now, I did get a PM along these lines (and if your reading that was an excellent point) which said, essentially, that larger games would have more politicks. But, there is more to it then that. Politicks really only are needed when it comes to controlling resources, which is why they aren’t that important – there are few resources which you can control in Ryzom, outposts being the only one. It would be impossible for a CoM or an AP to declare a monopoly on some zone because this would be impossible to enforce 24/7. This is possible with outposts. Which is why, atitd, a very small game of around 1300 accounts, has an extremely large political element. I am talking about a macro level politicks.

Now, when it comes to the day to day operation of any guild, I am fully aware of what must go on to at least the smallest degree, this would be a micro level. On this note I am extremely thankful for people like rushin and asto who do this for our guild on a day to day basis and no doubt people like yourself. I spent over a year as an officer in a raiding guild in EQ as well as petty officer in the Navy and I know how thankless a job leadership is. I am certain the rushin’s and asto’s and kostika’s of this world are doing everything they can externally and internally to improve their own guild – even in the face of long time players quiting and short term players leaving, bad events, and all the other sorts of daily drama which they need to put up with.

I hope this puts what I said into a better perspective of what I said and what I meant.

[kostika]

There is a difference between me saying: "there are no politicks" and “politicks aren’t very important in this game with respect to other games”. The first says politicks do not exist in any fashion. The second implies that politicks exist, they may even be important in day to day functions, but they aren’t as important as other games.

But I think politics are very important in this game. I think every player can be involved in them if they want to. Prior to Ep2 politics were minor and really unimportant due to the lack of content for such a thing and game mechanics. But now we do have both and it is important. Guild leaders feel it the most, but individuals can be very involved also if they choose to be.

Not being involved in the politics would ruin it for me. I enjoy it. And even if I was only a regular player in a guild, I would dive in and be involved. But that's jsut how I play.

[lexi44]

I may end up kicking myself for posting without reading the entire thread, but there have been some points made that I wanted to respond to.

First of all, to the OP (errr, original poster, lol)... Perhaps some of the confusion is that on one hand you keep comparing Ryzom to EVE (you give the impression that you feel EVE is a better game and compare the economies of both, real-time leveling, etc.), then turn around and say "I never said I want Ryzom to be like EVE!". It's a bit confusing.

I appreciate the fact that not everyone has hours upon hours to play a game, and that those that do "power-level" faster than those that don't have the hours to invest. But one thing always comes to mind when people bring this up: Why do you care? Is it really that important to "keep up with the Jones'"? Why not just enjoy the game at your own pace, for however many hours (or minutes) you can play per day and not worry about how fast Joe Smoe is leveling just because he has more time.

The fact that you *can* level in EVE while not even *playing* the game is one of the biggest reasons I looked at the website and said..."umm, NOPE!". Obviously this is a difference between yourself and I: I prefer that players actually EARN their levels by PLAYING and working for them, rather than just flipping on their computer and letting "time" level for them. Would you go into your RL job and just tell the boss to pay you, while you went home and sat on your rear watching football? Do you really expect to be rewarded for doing nothing? It is true, this is a *game* and should be fun...and I'll be the first to admit that grinding is *not* fun...but getting to a level where you are a real asset to the community IS fun, and that's the ultimate reward for allllll the time spent grinding and working your butt off collecting mats and discovering the best recipes (and maybe even a NEW one that kicks butt). The best part is that in Ryzom, you don't HAVE to be level 250 to be useful, or to feel "needed". I accomplished that feeling just the other day when one of my newbie alts made her first full set of Q50 armor with full hp bonus and put it on the vendor - and it sold later that day! My alt's highest level is harvesting...level 70. It feels sooooooo good knowing that somewhere in Atys, there is a newbie walking around and fighting in armor that *I* made, through my own hard work, and still a newbie myself.

I'm sorry to hear you didn't enjoy Ryzom as much as you expected to. But that is exactly why there are so many popular games "out there"....because we all have what we like and don't like. You like the way EVE plays...I like the way Ryzom plays. I'm not misguided or simple, and it's not just because of the friends I've made (in fact, ask anyone in my guild, I'm mostly anti-social, lol).

Although your post was well-written, literate, and not just a raving flurry of bashing the devs, I had one major issue with it. You seemed to imply that Ryzom won't last just because *you* weren't completely satisfied. What I mean is, statements similiar in meaning to "most will agree with me", and "the majority feel...". I'm sorry but you said you played for 2 months - how could you possibly know what the majority of players are thinking? Who are you to tell me that I only stay because of friends, or because of "hope" of things to come...and not because I LIKE the game, as it is? Who are you to say I'm the "minority"?

Now one final point (that basically coincides with the first point I attempted to make)...What would you think if I came to the EVE forums and posted a thread like yours here? If I said, "Yunno I've been playing for two months and I just don't think EVE is living up to it's potential. In Ryzom we can [insert skill here], but you can't do that in EVE. I didn't like the way I had to [insert skill here] in EVE...Ryzom does it so much better! If EVE would just these couple of things like Ryzom does, it would be a great game!"

What would you expect the forum response to be? Exactly. They'd tell me - "Hey you think Ryzom is so much better...go play it! Quit trying to make EVE into another Ryzom!". If you don't think my above paragraph describes what you did here, go back to your post and read over it....but substitute "Ryzom" every place you said "EVE", and vice versa, then imagine someone posted it on "your" EVE forum.

[petej]

or have a look in some of the posts from ex-Star Wars Galaxay players where they ask for Ryzom to be made into an SWG clone (before the NGE [New Game Engine?] -whatever that is lol)

Ryzom does have things that need sorting ie the Economy but it doesnt need to be re-worked into a different game entirely , ive been playing since Closed Beta 2 (coming upto 2 years -doesnt time fly when youre enjoying yourself) and have no intention of going elsewhere -unless ofc they change "my game" into something else which I dont like

[etrusan]

I may end up kicking myself for posting without reading the entire thread, but there have been some points made that I wanted to respond to.

I think your right. You should go back and re-read all my the posts which I made, especially the posts where I am “comparing” Eve to Ryzom. I would be very curious to know what you think I am comparing. I am comparing certain elements within two games, or am I comparing the games overall or am I doing something else?

Based on your post, I can only assume that you either didn’t read all my posts, you skimmed the ones you did read, or you cherry picked, in any of those cases I simply can’t go back and retype what I already have typed. If you wish to engage me in debate, please show me the courtesy of at least reading what I have written. I have been diligent in doing so with every other poster here and I am trying very hard to understand each posters own position.

That said, you did touch on one or two things which I have not answered and I will be more then happy to answer them now.

I appreciate the fact that not everyone has hours upon hours to play a game, and that those that do "power-level" faster than those that don't have the hours to invest. But one thing always comes to mind when people bring this up: Why do you care? Is it really that important to "keep up with the Jones'"? Why not just enjoy the game at your own pace, for however many hours (or minutes) you can play per day and not worry about how fast Joe Smoe is leveling just because he has more time.

I may have said this earlier and I may not have, but I could care less what other players are doing. I play at my own pace. This pace might be described as “fast” but it is my own pace. I am my own measuring stick.

The fact that you *can* level in EVE while not even *playing* the game is one of the biggest reasons I looked at the website and said..."umm, NOPE!". Obviously this is a difference between yourself and I: I prefer that players actually EARN their levels by PLAYING and working for them, rather than just flipping on their computer and letting "time" level for them. Would you go into your RL job and just tell the boss to pay you, while you went home and sat on your rear watching football? Do you really expect to be rewarded for doing nothing? It is true, this is a *game* and should be fun...and I'll be the first to admit that grinding is *not* fun...but getting to a level where you are a real asset to the community IS fun, and that's the ultimate reward for allllll the time spent grinding and working your butt off collecting mats and discovering the best recipes (and maybe even a NEW one that kicks butt). The best part is that in Ryzom, you don't HAVE to be level 250 to be useful, or to feel "needed". I accomplished that feeling just the other day when one of my newbie alts made her first full set of Q50 armor with full hp bonus and put it on the vendor - and it sold later that day! My alt's highest level is harvesting...level 70. It feels sooooooo good knowing that somewhere in Atys, there is a newbie walking around and fighting in armor that *I* made, through my own hard work, and still a newbie myself.

I half touched on this. In most games, including Ryzom, leveling is not hard. It is there as a time block to keep you from being bored with the game too rapidly. Most games use leveling, some use other techniques to get you to invest time. In Atitd for example you need to acquire a metric ton of materials just to build some building or monument. In EQ you need to invest a many hours into key quests or multiquests to progress as well as grinding out the levels. In any game I can calculate exactly how much time it will take me, under optimal conditions, to make that next level. This is true in Ryzom. Leveling in Ryzom does not take any real skill. On the other hand, killing bosses, PVP, politicking, op battles, guild management, or roleplaying, those sorts of things take skill. If I am breaking out my calculator and saying, ok, it will take me exactly 4.5 hours to make this next level or get that next spell with this group assuming ceteris paribus . But, this is true in any game. Leveling as a rule does not take any real skill, the real skill is usually found in the “content” or “game mechanics”. Now, I'm not making a value judgment here. I'm simply trying to make an illustration.

Leveling as the way it is in Ryzom and nearly every other mmorpg out there might be a fine model if it were tweaked, I think it currently has some serious issues though.

I'm sorry to hear you didn't enjoy Ryzom as much as you expected to. But that is exactly why there are so many popular games "out there"....because we all have what we like and don't like. You like the way EVE plays...I like the way Ryzom plays. I'm not misguided or simple, and it's not just because of the friends I've made (in fact, ask anyone in my guild, I'm mostly anti-social, lol).

Maybe I was not clear and that is my fault. I like Ryzom as a game concept. I like the way Ryzom plays. I think Ryzom has certain elements which are not as well developed or thought out as they should be and because of this is hurting player retention.

Although your post was well-written, literate, and not just a raving flurry of bashing the devs, I had one major issue with it. You seemed to imply that Ryzom won't last just because *you* weren't completely satisfied. What I mean is, statements similar in meaning to "most will agree with me", and "the majority feel...". I'm sorry but you said you played for 2 months - how could you possibly know what the majority of players are thinking? Who are you to tell me that I only stay because of friends, or because of "hope" of things to come...and not because I LIKE the game, as it is? Who are you to say I'm the "minority"?

No. I never said because “I” am not satisfied, therefor the game will fail. I am not satisfied with Atitd and it is a perfectly successful game in its own right. I am not satisfied with EQ and it is successful. The trouble with this word “successful” is by what measure are we holding to this word? Personally, I’m speaking of financially stable enough to continue to provide this product. If you wish to make a claim that Ryzom changed the genre in some fundamental way then you might have an argument. I know the venture capital business and I know the signs to look for and how to read public statements.

The only reason I made this post originally was because I want to see this game succeed and give people happiness for many years to come. I debated with myself over posting this at all, considering the flurry of other posts. I asked a friend, someone whom I trust, about whether I should or should not post, they said I should, and here I am. I am not expecting everyone, or anyone, to agree with my prognosis. What I really want is for people to issue their own prognosis or at least state succinctly why there are no problems with Ryzom at all. I said this earlier and I'll say it again: There is nothing wrong with playing a game and admitting it might not be perfect and it can improve in certain ways and these ways are X.

I hope I mostly used words like typical player and average player. Whom should Ryzom cater to, the current crowd or a potential future crowd? This is a hard to question to answer especially if you love Ryzom the way you do. If you wish for Ryzom to be unchanged in any way at all, with some risk of losing the game, would you prefer this, or would you prefer to change small things in the game to make the game more appealing to a larger player base and thus lessening the risk of shut down. This is a touch question for anyone to answer. But this is the starting point before any rational discourse can be held.

Now one final point (that basically coincides with the first point I attempted to make)...What would you think if I came to the EVE forums and posted a thread like yours here? If I said, "Yunno I've been playing for two months and I just don't think EVE is living up to it's potential. In Ryzom we can [insert skill here], but you can't do that in EVE. I didn't like the way I had to [insert skill here] in EVE...Ryzom does it so much better! If EVE would just these couple of things like Ryzom does, it would be a great game!"

What would you expect the forum response to be? Exactly. They'd tell me - "Hey you think Ryzom is so much better...go play it! Quit trying to make EVE into another Ryzom!". If you don't think my above paragraph describes what you did here, go back to your post and read over it....but substitute "Ryzom" every place you said "EVE", and vice versa, then imagine someone posted it on "your" EVE forum.

I would probably attempt to engage you in some debate and if your points are valid I would agree that those are elements which should be changed. Eve is not a perfect and it has its flaws like any other game. Secondly, I would point to Eve’s slow growth business model, the only one in the industry. Eve has consistently been adding new customers through its history, never losing net customers. If Eve had a player retention problem, then I could see the parallel. This is a hard point to argue with. Eve and Ryzom are both niche games and neither are ever going to have hundreds of thousands of players on line at the same time, unlike WoW. This is a good thing in my opinion. Thirdly, I have not come to the Ryzom boards and say that Ryzom should change all elements to the way CCP does things. I put forward these ideas as proposals, not absolutes - this is a world of difference.

[lexi44]

I usually do not like to disect other people's posts, but since you seemed to be either missing the points I was making or just back-paddling what you *first* said in this thread, I felt it was necessary to point out the specific things in your first post that I had issue with.

***Snipped, we agree the economy needs work***

What Ryzom fails to recognize as a game is that skilling = time. Some people have more time at their exposure to play games then others and it is inherently unfair from a perspective justice to award people more ranks of skill simply because they can spend more time online. I also strongly dislike grinding. Though, if there is a definitive goal I will grind to achieve this goal. In Ryzom, you grind to be awarded with yet more grinding. For example, I can grind my digging skill and be awarded with a higher dig skill so I can grind more. I can grind my fame skill so I can get awarded with PR access so I can grind more in the PR.

This is not logical game design. A more rational system is the system which Eve has implemented and that is the system which gives you skill points for time directly, no matter if you are online or offline. This eliminates the grind and is a just outcome.

You say: "Some people have more time at their exposure(?) to play games then others and it is inherently unfair from a perspective justice to award people more rank of skill simply because they can spend more time online."

I say - how is that unfair? Why is it unfair to reward those that *take the time* to DO the work it takes to get the levels up?

You feel it is more fair (or at least "more logical") that players should not do anything at all to EARN their levels - that all they should have to do is subscribe to the game and let it sit unplayed and they'll be at the top in just a matter of time. I do not agree with your "logic" at all.

People will continue to play a game even if it is content-less so long as they can continue to accrue power, wealth, and fame (real fame). If these things are empty or missing players will either not play at all or they will play for the novelty and soon move on. I can use the example of Eve here, people do not play Eve for the end game; there is no end game. We can talk about the litany of reasons about why people play each individual game but one thing about Ryzom which is nearly for certain; few people play Ryzom because they enjoy it. They play Ryzom because they acquired a social circle of friends and they get a certain benefit from this. If and when people realize this they will leave with their circle of friend(s). I am certain I will get many replies saying “I enjoy Ryzom!”. And, you are in the few. This is not unique to Ryzom. I once saw a poll about EQ when I played asking why people and an amazing number (for greater then 50%) played because of their friends / guild. Once WoW and EQ2 came out, these guilds / friends moved.

Twice in just this paragraph you profess to *know* that "few people play Ryzom because they enjoy it". I would like to ask just what you are basing this information on after just two months of playing. I know quite a LOT of players that love Ryzom, and it's not just because of their "circle of friends". The fact you once saw a poll about EQ has very little to do with this discussion about Ryzom.

The only point in your above paragraph that I agree with is that "circles of friends" do tend to migrate together. I saw it happen en masse when I left SWG - whole guilds uprooted and moved to other games. We do have one instance of that happening here (as far as I know): When the Infinity guild let to play another game. However, just because *one* guild grew tired of Ryzom, it hardly writes the death-sentence for Ryzom that you seem to think is lurking around the corner.

Playing a game for the hope that good new content will be released in the future is not a very good measuring stick. When I advise people on buying and selling stock, I always say: If you ever use the word “hope” then it is time to sell. The same is true with online games. If you are saying: I hope Nevrex will release good content in the next patch, then you have already gone past the point of no return.

Again, I have to disagree. Although it may be what you described in the Stock business, I do not agree that having "hopes" for a game is a bad thing. Let's face it - *no* game out there is "perfect" for anyone's standards/desires. No game is "perfect" for every single player. Those of us that have played several MMO's know that they are dynamic and constantly growing/improving (or at least we hope so!)....that's what keeps them fresh. You might feel "hope" is a bad thing....I rather think it's a *good* thing. When players lose hope in a dynamic game, that is when they [the game] die.

Nevrex wishes to release R2, which is player created content and this is a mistake. Player created content in an online world is a non-competitive business model and I am surprised the VC’s didn’t stomp this. What Ryzom is aiming for is player driven content and that is an entirely different beast. There is a little of this in Ryzom, but the real player driven content can be found in Eve.

I absolutely can not comment on R2, as I know very little about it.

The XP crystals is actual game content and an objective except it is an extremely poor one (albeit the only thing in the game at the moment). This is a system where power will beget yet more power and is inherently bad. Small guilds wishing to come up from the bottom will never have the same opportunity that larger and more established guilds do. Yes, it is true that certain guilds do pass out crystals, however they do this selectively to those whom they deem worthy and not equitably. The new thing which I forget the name of (which prevents spawning) will only exacerbate this. If you think one guild is difficult to remove with the option of infinite respawns, try it if you only have one go.

Again, I have to disagree with your basic opinion here. First of all "crystals" are not *content*, they are a leveling tool. The Outposts which crystals come from are the actual *content*. I also disagree that they are the "only thing [content?] in the game". There are several things which I would classify as "content" (I usually term things as "content" if they provide a sort of "mini-game" within the overall game). I class several other things in Ryzom as content, based on my criteria: Boss-hunting and collecting their resources, a crafting system which requires players to "design" the most successful recipes, Outposts (which encourage players to form their own Politics), Supernodes in PR, which are temporarily available at only certain times of the IG-year - which players have to sometimes fight over, or just plain "trick" their way into getting to them (*winks at The Soul*, hehe). There are probably other things that I would consider "content" that I'm just not thinking of at the moment; or simply haven't discovered yet in *my* two months of playing.

Player created content is preferred to GM driven content. Personally, and most people for that matter, have a tough time getting into an RP roll (most people in Ryzom can, however, since people tend to do what they are most efficient at). However, it is not difficult for me to get into a real player trying to exact revenge because of a lost ship, declare war on the enemy because of a real issue and not something abstract, or bending the market to my will.

Excuse me for "hacking up" your original paragraph, but there is so much that I'd like to comment on that I needed to break it up for clarity.

First of all, I do not agree that "Player content is preferred to GM driven content". Unless you are only speaking for yourself; which you did not make clear if you were. I feel that both are equally important to a well-rounded game. I'm going to assume you meant "role" and not "roll", but I think Ryzom makes roleplaying quite "easy" because of the extensive work they put into creating a storyline (the Lore) in this game. The entire Kami vs. Karavan "roleplay" is sometimes excruitiatingly played out...to a point (for some) where RL emotions are drug into the RP role. In Ryzom, it's not just the standard, bland, "pvp"....it's pvp with a purpose, where one side is defending their character's beliefs....even those who are "Neutral" find themselves defending "Peace"....and of course, as in any game with pvp "sides", you have your mixed bag of Mercenaries that actually only take the side of "money", hehe. All of this is a part of that "player-driven content" you feel is lacking in Ryzom. I don't know how you managed to "miss" it in the two months you played - I've only been playing for about two months myself and it is almost impossible to miss the tensions between the races and their allegences.

Gm driven content is extremely costly. Nevrex made a choice when making this game for Gm events weekly. I do not think they were prepared for how man power intensive this is. For each man/hour that is used in this one time here now gone tomorrow can not be used in permanent content. I think it was a good experiment myself, but I think this is something that Nevrex should seriously think about reconsidering. If people are playing 15 bucks a month for a two hour event which is only fun ¼ of the time (for each persons own preferences), then most people are going to quit or not bother subscribing.

I do agree that GM's trying to provide content for players on a weekly basis is an unreasonable goal. To expand on what you said, "If people are [paying] 15 bucks a month for a two-hour event"....then IMO they should just go buy themselves a nice single-player game and save themselves the money. When players depend more on what GM's and Devs can provide for them (rather than create their own content aka "fun"), then I would suspect they are quite unimaginative and would do better in a single-player game where everything is laid out for them to follow step-by-step.

I'm not sure why you brought this up though - Ryzom hardly revolves around GM-provided content. There is a *lot* to do in Ryzom, particularly if you are the more adventurous type. In the two months I've been playing, I've only known about 2 "events", and unfortunately I missed one of them.

All that said, I think Ryzom could be the best game out there which is why I tried it in the first place. I think a lot of the innovation at Nevrex is second to none. If some things do change for the positive, assuming the VC’s don’t pull the plug, then I will re-up my account. I'll continue to follow this thread and will be more then happy to answer any questions.

In the mean time, anyone who wishes to play Eve, you can find me there under the same name (Etruscus and my alt Etrusan).

I mean no offense to you, but when I read this last paragraph stating you think Ryzom "could be" the best game out there, I had to kind of chuckle since all you did throughout your post is nit-pick everything that's wrong with the game - according to your views. It's as if you are saying: "Ryzom would be a great game....if they would just change everything about it".

The very (assumptive) title of your thread perhaps sent me into a negative spiral from the get-go..."On the *ending* of Ryzom"??? Who says it's ending...or did you only mean this is the end *for you*? Your entire post describes everything you find fault with, unfortunately many of your views, IMO, were incorrect or poorly justified.


To answer your question in your response to my first post here, no I have not searched the forum for every post you have written. I hope it doesn't hurt your feelings but I have more to do with my time than read "the Ryzom world according to etrusan". I wasn't responding to those posts, I was responding to *this* post.