Declaration Of Intent

[basicart]

Re archerke's points:-

1. I'm really not sure what you are getting at here. I don't want to sound caustic or supercilious but your grammar confuses me. It's not a question of whether guilds fight over supernodes or not. It's a question of the morality of a strong group telling others what they may or may not do. The rest of your point is already answered elsewhere in the thread (I think).

2. Yes, it most certainly is right (morally and for other reasons) to judge the actions of others. Do I need to spell it out that it happens all the time in life. And it is only by making such judgements, and discussing them, that a society comes to agree on a common set of values by which they believe they should live.

3. Yes, although I think interfere is an emotive word that does not carry the correct connotations in this situation. It implies the situation I am intervening in is none of my business. When a group commences a policy that affects all others outside that group it becomes my business.

And I've got to say that your conclusion amounts to the biggest cop out of all. I'm a realist and I recognise that 'putting my head over the parapet' in this way will probably have no practical effect on the situation and will be detrimental to me personally. But that doesn't make the point I have made any less morally correct or mean it shouldn't be said. How many policies will you let others make that could be detrimental to you but that you will keep saying 'Oh well it doesn't matter, I can work round it' and what will you do come the day a policy is commenced that you can't work round?

No what you want is for everyone to say "YOUR WAY IS RIGHT!" but you must remember this is your way of doing things and its your opinion, its not a question of morals when your trying to force people into playing a sertan way yourself. Please dont try and make us all little carbon copys of ya self. I and anyone else can play how ever we wish

[gaspode1]

The use of force may well have it's place here as in real life. Possibly more so as this is, in the end, a game and not real life despite the parallels that exist. However, I think that would be best discussed in a separate thread to prevent this one becoming too unwieldy.

I would prefer this thread to concentrate solely on the morality issue.

And in answer to Sanz I can only say; Suppose you work in a shop and you arrive for work one day, and there are 6 people stood at the door who say "Sorry mate but we need the money so we are going to work here now and if you try & come in we will beat you up". You try and go in and get beaten up. Does the fact that they have told you in advance what will happen make what they do morally right?

[michielb]

No what you want is for everyone to say "YOUR WAY IS RIGHT!" but you must remember this is your way of doing things and its your opinion, its not a question of morals when your trying to force people into playing a sertan way yourself. Please dont try and make us all little carbon copys of ya self. I and anyone else can play how ever we wish

Now what if, and I'm just guessing here, but what if the majority of the arispotle server thinks killing harvesters because you think they're taking something that is meant only for those strong enough to fight for it is wrong?


but you're right Basic democracy is such an unfair system we should get rid of is ASAP....

[basicart]

.

And in answer to Sanz I can only say; Suppose you work in a shop and you arrive for work one day, and there are 6 people stood at the door who say "Sorry mate but we need the money so we are going to work here now and if you try & come in we will beat you up". You try and go in and get beaten up. Does the fact that they have told you in advance what will happen make what they do morally right?

Myself i would round up some mates n kick the pap out of em, some may call the police. But this is a game please remember this. If ya talking about it like RL then please also put into RL context of all the nerfs agro mobs and may other things that anoy us dayly not just some one doing PvP over sups.

[gaspode1]

Oh dear Basic, you really are sounding like I've struck a nerve.

I see you still have chosen not to answer my question about the morality of the situation which is the whole point of my original posting.

And since you can't answer the point all you do is try & throw a little mud around using emotive language and try to put words in my mouth that have never been there.

I've been very careful not to tell anybody how they should play only explain my opinion of how they should NOT play. I made clear early on in my postings that if my opinion was in a minority I would think again. Can you say the same?

So far yours has been the only voice which has vehemently been raised against me. I am taking what you say as personal opinions as there has been no clarification yet as to whether or not you are speaking personally or on behalf of the guild of which you are a member.

I think your final statement gets us closer to the truth of the matter "I and anyone else can play how ever we wish". I'll leave 'anyone else' to speak for themselves. That leaves 'I can play however I wish'. And that statement brings the arguement full circle. Reread my first posting to remind yourself why I say there is a moral dimension involved here and why that means that although we can all easily play 'however we wish' it is still morally wrong.

[zyryx]

***Edited: Content removed due to extensive use of foul language. Please respect the forum rules & Netiquette located at: http://www.ryzom.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3899

[basicart]

/target zryos
/cheer

[gaspode1]

And now I've just seen your reply to my analogy in reply to Sanz.

I have to assume you are being truthful. The start of your reply sort of misses the point I was making but if that is really how you would behave in real life then words fail me. I'll just leave anyone who reads it to draw their own conclusions about what sort of person you must be.

Then, once again, you then simply try & confuse the issue by raising a totally unrelated and irrelevant point.

I've raised a single morality issue as I think it is important. If you think 'nerfs agro mobs etc' is an important issue then feel free to raise it in a separate thread and see how many people are interested by their response to you in that thread.

If you think my issue is important then try and answer it. If you don't think it is important then why are you spending time posting?

[asaseth]

I have to say, from reading the arrogant posts by some members of Infinity on other threads (sorry Noh, but your name stuck in my mind) i feel like taking the same stance as Gaspode.

Sorry, didn't think I was comeing accross as arrogant. Mearly pointing out that the statement was agenst all players, seeing as how it looked like everything befor it was mentioning only one or two-man guilds.

I've carefully read the very long thread involved and see no moral reason why Infinity have any more rights to supreme nodes than the next digger.

Near as I can tell, we (and I am speaking for my self, can't say for everyone else) don't, nor, to my knowledge, have we ever claimed to.

Next, I asked myself what unique features Infinity bring to the game that cannot be obtained elsewhere. I concluded that there was nothing.

That is not entirely true. As was shown in this thread and several others, we act as a mobile ralying point. When there is a lull in activities, when Wormbreath or the Kittin aren't acting up, you can always count on Infinity getting others skirts in a bunch. While it is true that evil can only prevail if good homin do nothing, if there is no evil, then there is no need for the good homin to do anything. With this no need to do anything, people get bored, and leave, like with Reyns (this isn't how you spell his name, but I don't remember the correct way off the top of my head right now).

1. As I see players with the guild tag of Infinity in the game I will place them on my Ignore list.

2. So far as is possible, I do not want any advice, help, resing or other interaction with any Infinity member within the game.

3. I will not be part of a team containing Infinity members.

4. I will not knowingly buy any mats from Infinity members.

5. I will not knowingly buy crafted items from Infinity members.

6. I will not res Infinity members. For the sake of clarity, if there is a mixed team of Infinity and non-Infinity members I will always be prepared to res the non-Infinity players.

I am sorry that you have decided to take this course of action, but I understand. As far as the 'don't want any interaction with any Infinity member' goes, I'll try to abide by it, but seeing as how many times I have gotten DP doing a run to ress someone else, that turned out to be guild enimy, my memory is kinda short, and I can't garanty it. Same goes for you, Seren, and Crythos, and Lwiz, and bcharles, and blondy, and

It's a point of principle about the morality of a groups stated policy.

Don't particulary see anything moraly wrong with it. Fair warning, obviously there are others that can do the same thing to us, as was shown when we were fighting with Omega V, and it's not like we are camping every super node, 24/7/365.25.

it is quite simply whether one group has a MORAL right to dictate to others in the game what they can and can't do.

I fail to see how we are dictating to anyone else what they can and can't do. The statment was that anyone digging the super node that we were would get warned, and then killed. There was no statement about don't go digging our nodes, nor any other statements telling people what to do. People can still dig them, just as people can attack us in roots, or decide to boycott us. Our stance (or at least mine), is that you can dig our super node, but we will warn you, then kill you, you can attack us, but we will attack back, and you can boycott us, but that does not mean that we have to boycott you.

Leapfrogging now to turjakes reply, that brings up something I wish I had said initially but didn't think about. If I die at the hands of players in PvP zones then it will be in the way he describes and I think that means we would die with dignity.

His way is dignified, but for my money, giveing as good as you get is better. Too each his own.

I think it would be more honest of Infinity just to say ***Edited: Use of foul language is not permitted on these public message boards. Please respect the forum rules & Netiquette located at: http://www.ryzom.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3899 *** , we do what we like" rather than trying to convince us of their benevolent nature. I can just imagine them standing over me saying "I know I killed you, but it was for your own good". Oohh my!!!

And Infinity - I don't know if your mothers come to check that you are good boys/girls online or what, just be big enough to own up to being the bullies that you so clearly are. I won't think any less of you for it.

Near as I can tell, we are not any more benevolent than anyone else, and anyone saying 'I killed you for your own good' is talking smack, and could be construed as harasment, illegal under the CoC. As far as 'being the bullies you so clearly are', if we realy were bullies, then that would mean that we would kill any digger we came accross, and with no warning. Now granted, there has been some complaints of that, but there have been some complaint of other people doing that, too. If we were actualy being bullies, there would be alot more complaining going on.

Here is an example. I'm a pretty big guy. How would you like infinity members if I'd forbid you to buy your favourite cigars from the only store in town? You can't beat the **** out of me, you are too weak, and IF you ask for police help, I'll be free in 48 hours. And when I'll come back, I'll beat the **** out of YOU. Do you like this scenario? I suppose not.

For one thing, there are more cigar places in town. For another, I would be getting more people in town to do something about it, beat you up, for instance. And finaly, if worst came to absolute worst, I would put you in a possition where you would actualy be doing something that would warrant you being put away for a bit longer than a mear 48 hours.

Suppose you work in a shop and you arrive for work one day, and there are 6 people stood at the door who say "Sorry mate but we need the money so we are going to work here now and if you try & come in we will beat you up". You try and go in and get beaten up. Does the fact that they have told you in advance what will happen make what they do morally right?

This compairison falls down on it's face. The job you were doing, in some places, and in some terms, is legaly yours. Them doing this is illegal. Heck, them beating you up is Assault and Battery, a crime. A simple phone call to your boss or the cops will get that straightened all out. The nodes, on the other hand, are public domain, which by default, are first come first served, and the strongest get the most. Now, if Infinity was just sitting on them 24/7/365.25, and letting NO ONE dig them, then that is wrong. However 'oh, hey, the super Zun or what ever is up, lets go get it' and bringing a fighter team down to guard it, is perfectly alright. Considering all the grief that Infinity has gotten, comeing down with a team is considered normal.

but what if the majority of the arispotle server thinks killing harvesters because you *think* they're taking something that is meant only for those strong enough to fight for it is wrong?

It is not who is strong enough to fight for it. It is strong enough to fight for it, sneakiest to steal it, knoweledgable(sp?) enough to get there when there is no danger, or diplomatic enough to either dig there, or get the mats, with out there being problems. And if the majority of Arispotle thinks it is wrong, then let the majority of Arispotle speak, not just a fiew people on the forums. The ticket system is there for just such a reason.

As far as 'getting the official answer' to this, someone else in Infinity or myself will let Brithlem know, so he can post.

Noh
Zorai
Infinity
(not to be confused with the other person on this account)

[virii]

I dout anyone else will be posting the CoC has been broken about 15 times on this thread..