Don't feed the resellers

[kaetemi]

maybe this topic can help here:
http://www.ryzom.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14395

[rrwfreak]

maybe this topic can help here:
http://www.ryzom.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14395

Come on enough of the off topic junk. If you can't stay on topic and carry on a mature debate, don't post. This is a current issue that needs to be discussed and worked out, not to mention it hasn't gotten out of hand with flaming and trolling.

[larwood]

I can't believe that their are people calling Haddo greedy. LMAO!!!! You've got to be kidding me

OK, i think we have beaten this into the ground. Nobody said haddo is greedy. But we all agree that he does have an interest in earning a profit. Subject finished.

Furthermore the people that do it, usually wait till he is offline or as on Windermeer goes on a vacation so they know how Haddo feels about this. However, they do it anyway. Is the market in Ryzom a free market, yes, and I do not argue that.

We, for the most part, have agreed that this behavior is also bad and monopolistic... which defeats the purpose of fair trade. No buying out all the stock.

That being said, we the players have the right to make certain spoken rules about how business can be conducted in Ryzom's free market, what should be common courteousy, and to enforce those said rules and courteousies. Even in RL free markets there are some rules and common courteousies that people follow.

Yes every player can speak his/her mind.... but enforce my opinion, NO. Common courteousy is In my opinion very important, and i will try to implement it in my gameplay. I can hope that others will be courteous too, but hey man... I gotta leave it at that. They have as much right to play, how they want, as I do to play how i want. And even it RL, like you said, there are people who do not abide by those "rules" and common courteousies. We cant let someone else's actions coontrol what we do. Then they are in charge.

btw, I group the people that go out and still buy and resell Haddo's jewelry at higher prices... are like "carpet baggers" and prey on victims of disasters when they are in need.

Dude, thats a harsh opinion.

Yes, maybe, but there are people out there that don't have a ton of dappers. Noobies, people that have lost their toons and guilds and had to start over, and generally some other people that just don't accumilate large bank rolls of dappers.

Noobies and such arent really involved.... how many newbies are gonna buy q250 jewels? maybe a few... but not enought to make an impact in this discussion. Same with lost toons and guilds.... small percentage of jewlery users.


So... we have come to some agreements on some of this stuff. But I still say that you can be a Trader (buy & sell) in the Ryzom market and be benificial to the community and ryzom economy. Sure you can overkill... and buy it all, and that is unhealthy... just like if I overkill on anything till it gets out of hand. Moderation is good.

Thanks for the response.

[oldmess]

I still say that you can be a Trader (buy & sell) in the Ryzom market and be benificial to the community and ryzom economy.

To me, the key to this thought is the idea of "value-add". Do you add value by buying and reselling? Then you are benificial to the community and a small markup is reasonable. Otherwise, you're leeching of someone else's work. If you're using an alt and doing this only when you know the crafter is offline, you know you're a leech. Harsh? A little. So, if I'm wrong, I challenge Mudd and/or Munkie to step forward and let us know what value they add to the Ryzom community. C'mon boys, step into the light.

My example from a previous post: A player that buys some, but not all, of the jewels in Dyron and resells them in Avendale makes jewels available to Trykers that can't get to Dyron easily. Ideally, this would work best for everyone if this reseller could work WITH Haddo (and other crafters) to make this happen.

I want to emphasize one thing (not so much in response to you, but just in general): Haddo did not call for any type of official sanction. He asked that those of you that agree with him boycott these resellers. He's not asking for rules or game changes and I don't believe such rules would be enforceable/desirable anyway.

So I want to encourage players to buy from merchandise from the crafters which will help your fellow players. If the resellers aren't making sales, then lower priced merchandise will stay in stock. If you buy from the resellers, they will keep buying out the lower price merchandise and marking it up.

[trenker]

Selling q250 jewells cheap does not necessarily benefit all the community:

1) Guilds working on power/fight for the outposts have just had some of their uberness diluted as anyone can have q250 jewels. This lessens the diversity of the guilds/players and will tend to increase GvG attrition and grind. This assumes we play outposts as GvG, we may all end up being very polite about it for all I know.

2) Jewellers working on their jewel craft and slowly selling their stuff now have no chance. Thats a good 50 grumpy jewellers wondering what they are going to do in game now. This means less jeweller diversity which is bad for the community. For example, someone already said in this thread, 'wheres the stam/sap jewels?'.

3) Harvesters used to sell mats to jewellers at a good price (3,500 per mat). Well now thats just not possible because the jewellers (well me anyway) can't make ends meet anymore and cant offer the harvesters that kind of money. So the harvesters go away and do something else, perhaps different mats. But parts of the nice economy that existed before Haddo came to town (my town dammit) is now brocken.

So, if someone's low price q250 jewels can cause such game pain, then I certainly don't mind Haddo getting a bit of pain back. Afterall, if he's allowed to cause some stress/mess due to his 'style of play' then perhaps it's not so bad that other people's style affects him.

But, as this thread has discussed, it would be a great loss to the majority of the community if q250 were not easily available. Heck, I buy several sets per week myself. And, in case you're wondering, I don't resell them.

This post is just for discussion purposes, my above points are not exactly watertight, but they do bring up some points not found in this thread so far.

Tember
Clan Omnis

[larwood]

To me, the key to this thought is the idea of "value-add". Do you add value by buying and reselling?...

My example from a previous post: A player that buys some, but not all, of the jewels in Dyron and resells them in Avendale makes jewels available to Trykers that can't get to Dyron easily.

The above is one example of what I mean by trade. When value is added, such as convienece or availability... this is a value. This is good.

Even buying and selling in the same place, Dyron, can add value... my example is that of availability. Like you said, haddo and others arent always logged on. Many times i've tried to buy jewels in Dyron, or other gear for that matter, and it wasnt available. I would have been willing to buy the gear from a reseller at a higher cost, cause I needed it then.

I'm glad we agree.

And I fully support anyone who desires to support Haddo, and only buy from him. Many people in the USA desire to buy goods made only in the USA... its a personal preferance thing. If you want to boycott the resellers, then thats fine by me. Just dont criticize those who see things differently. And no, I am not Mudd or Monkey. Thom, Thom, Thom. There can and is value in Trade. But on the otherhand, there can be manipulation of this facet of the game, as there are other ways to exploit Ryzom.

[rrwfreak]

That being said, we the players have the right to make certain spoken rules about how business can be conducted in Ryzom's free market, what should be common courteousy, and to enforce those said rules and courteousies. Even in RL free markets there are some rules and common courteousies that people follow.

Larwood's response:

Yes every player can speak his/her mind.... but enforce my opinion, NO. Common courteousy is In my opinion very important, and i will try to implement it in my gameplay. I can hope that others will be courteous too, but hey man... I gotta leave it at that. They have as much right to play, how they want, as I do to play how i want. And even it RL, like you said, there are people who do not abide by those "rules" and common courteousies. We cant let someone else's actions coontrol what we do. Then they are in charge.

Larwood I think you misunderstood me and that is partly my fault for not explaining myself more. The enforcement of rules and courtieousies I meant were as what Haddo is suggesting to those of us that want to help out....to not buy the reseller's jewels if they have not gotten premission from said crafter. A boycott of buying their items basically. I did not mean a KOS or anything of that nature. I'm against KOS personally especially over something such as this. I'm also against any written rules added to the CoC to cover this because you are right it just has to do with a style of game play that a person chooses to play.

I also agree that on the other side of the coin there are those that are playing as resellers have seen an opportunity to make dappers. Yes, they have a right too, and I'm not saying they don't if they choose to play that way. All I'm saying is that I agree with Haddo's stance that I and others have a right to boycott them if we so choose to try and put a stop to it. Whilest "carpet bagger" may be a harsh term and I do admit that that is strong language to describe such behavior, maybe we can call them black marketeers. I'm not sure if that even fits...maybe just really agressive salesmen and women with no scrupples especially since they aren't asking permission from the crafter.

I guess I play my character as an overly nice Fyros gentleman who goes out of his way to help his fellow homin so I see those resellers that are reselling without the crafter's premission with quite a bit of distaste. You may or may not disagree with me, but that is just how I feel and that is strictly rp reasons nothing more and nothing less.

Sorry for not explaining myself better. Morning cobwebs and all.

[larwood]

I guess I play my character as an overly nice Fyros gentleman who goes out of his way to help his fellow homin so I see those resellers that are reselling without the crafter's premission with quite a bit of distaste. You may or may not disagree with me, but that is just how I feel and that is strictly rp reasons nothing more and nothing less.

/target rrwfreak
/bow

[totnkopf]

Selling q250 jewells cheap does not necessarily benefit all the community:

1) Guilds working on power/fight for the outposts have just had some of their uberness diluted as anyone can have q250 jewels. This lessens the diversity of the guilds/players and will tend to increase GvG attrition and grind. This assumes we play outposts as GvG, we may all end up being very polite about it for all I know.

2) Jewellers working on their jewel craft and slowly selling their stuff now have no chance. Thats a good 50 grumpy jewellers wondering what they are going to do in game now. This means less jeweller diversity which is bad for the community. For example, someone already said in this thread, 'wheres the stam/sap jewels?'.

3) Harvesters used to sell mats to jewellers at a good price (3,500 per mat). Well now thats just not possible because the jewellers (well me anyway) can't make ends meet anymore and cant offer the harvesters that kind of money. So the harvesters go away and do something else, perhaps different mats. But parts of the nice economy that existed before Haddo came to town (my town dammit) is now brocken.

So, if someone's low price q250 jewels can cause such game pain, then I certainly don't mind Haddo getting a bit of pain back. Afterall, if he's allowed to cause some stress/mess due to his 'style of play' then perhaps it's not so bad that other people's style affects him.

But, as this thread has discussed, it would be a great loss to the majority of the community if q250 were not easily available. Heck, I buy several sets per week myself. And, in case you're wondering, I don't resell them.

This post is just for discussion purposes, my above points are not exactly watertight, but they do bring up some points not found in this thread so far.

Tember
Clan Omnis

got bitterness?

[mboeing]

got bitterness?

I can understand him, but after all its a free market game. So everyone is up to do as he likes. If haddo is upset by ppl buying his wares and selling them more expensive, he should sell them more expensive in the first place.

Its too bad that jewels and light armor are not somehow level bound as all other items are.

Its making life for new and low level much too easy. Plus its taking away all sense in creating lower lvl versions of these items.