Do we really need PvP?

[thebax]

actually no, the question i ask there hasn't been adressed yet, and i'm asking for details, not just general concepts that can be laid out any which way. the reason is that i don't think there is a feasible way to implement an exploit-free and pvp-free outpost system without fundamentally changing the game. also: yes by pvp i meant combat. this includes any aggressive actions against any part of a character or their belongings. well, something else you touched, it should be fun, but i thought that was way too obvious to need to mention it...

Maybe you need to rephrase the question, then. As I read it, it has been addressed, often. Perhaps I am misreading it, though.
As far as specifics, they are available, in cohesive, non-exploitable form from any number of games, form Shadowbane's method of building, maintaining, stocking, and staffing structures (athough, to be fair, if you were willing to invest in a bane-circle, PvP could become involved), to the Sim's, one of the best-selling games in history.

[xenofur]

Well, I guess the "riddle" was for me.
Sollution. The ownership of the outposts is based on fame related missions. Only guilds with a certain amount of fame AND members can own them. Once aquired are guild property for ever... basically. But are some things that can make you to lose an outpost... and are not PvP.
1. Lack of dappers to pay the rent (it should be not one time fee but let's say... 5 mill dappers/day)
2. Lack of mats for outpost blacksmiths (let's say 100 fiber, 100 bark, 100... etc / day)
3. Lack of fame (doing too many -fame missions for other factions)
4. Lack of guildies. (let's say you need at least 30 members to own an outpost)

Where is PvP here? Is only PvE.

Advantages?
- Near q200-250 nodes with guard protection
- Storeplace
- Guild based NPC merchant (better items based on mats you provide)
- Mobs killed by guards have loot and is Guild loot. (it might be exploitable)


Guess that answers your question.

the strongest guild i know of on leanon has 60 members (all of which have at least lvl 250 and way too much time on their hands) and is well known for practicing grief play whenever possible. that's a lot of potential and alt characters, with your system they could at least take 10 OPs and hold them with ease, which is exploiting the system to force their will on others. if you are willing to accept that simply upping the difficulty by increasing the required dapper/mats/fame would exclude a lot of smaller and low level guilds from OP content then you have the solution, else you would have to adapt it to make that impossible.

btw: if we actually get a good model here, i'd like to have it presented and polled on, to see how the community would accept it and also to show nevrax that there are other possibilities.

[thebax]

the strongest guild i know of on leanon has 60 members (all of which have at least lvl 250 and way too much time on their hands) and is well known for practicing grief play whenever possible. that's a lot of potential and alt characters, with your system they could at least take 10 OPs and hold them with ease, which is exploiting the system to force their will on others. if you are willing to accept that simply upping the difficulty by increasing the required dapper/mats/fame would exclude a lot of smaller and low level guilds from OP content then you have the solution, else you would have to adapt it to make that impossible.

Heh, with that set-up, PvP would only make things worse, not better

[drizzeth]

In reply to Baxter post:#366

I think if we are talking about how dangerous the non-pvp area is with mob placements and KP compared to PVP areas that we should remember that for both cases Ryzom is being built with grouping in mind, you *can* solo, but the game heavily encourages you in every aspect it can to group.

Idealisticaly you should always need a group to harvest the best of the best materials, be it to fend off mobs or to defend guild harvesters in pvp grounds.

If you can sneak past mobs and thus make supreme foraging a solo activity (or dual with a CP) its a bonus for you, not a game fundamental.
Fundamentaly you would be there with a team of defenders of your guild, be it against AI in non pvp or players in pvp.

That is how i always saw it, from being a nob in beta till this very day.

Ryzom does it best to reward every aspect of grouping, there is so much content for grouping that is not avaiable for solo or duo play styles.
However Ryzom sees the need for making soloplay a possibility so people can choose to opt out of the social reward system or just to bide their time until their Guild comes on.

Another thing Ryzom forces you to do is Guilding, if youre not in a guild you miss out on content, this socail forcing is also a positive thing in my view.

Supreme materials are very rare and limited, they are Guild/Faction matters. A single person should never be able to dig up al the sup mats, by the whole spirit of Ryzoms social reward system Guilds have more right to those mats as soloplayers. Although i think everyone, solo or not has the same rights over anything but thats beside my point, my point is that Ryzom forces you into grouping idealisticaly hoping to force your game style to be a social one.

Needing a team to defend you fits right in with rewarding social behaviour with supreme materials.

Again, if you can sneak past KP or players and make supreme digging a solo matter, more power to you but i strongly feel that that isnt how it is designed to be.

EDIT: Atys has always been meant to be a very very harsh living enviroment, it never is meant to be an easy game aswell. This is why mobs are so overly powered compared to a homin of the same level and just another mechanism to make you group
(also added Faction to "Guild/Faction")

EDIT2:Another point of vieuw: Nobody *needs* supreme or roots materials, they are intended as a bonus, not an industry standard.

[xenofur]

Heh, with that set-up, PvP would only make things worse, not better

actually not, we already have a counter-force ready, which would well be able to control them if pvp is available

[thebax]

actually not, we already have a counter-force ready, which would well be able to control them if pvp is available

"An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind."

Some bald dude said that.

Like I said, worse, not better.

[oauitam]

The place for coming up with good outpost models is here, not only for getting the interested players' input but also for the slim chance of a dev looking for opinions on good outpost models.

...with your system they could at least take 10 OPs and hold them with ease, which is exploiting the system to force their will on others...

I always assumed it was one outpost per guild until posters on the Outposts Outlined thread made me realise other players had assumed otherwise. Whatever the actuality, one outpost per guild solves your worry.

It seems fair to say that whether, and if so how, Ryzom needs outposts is independent of 'do we need PvP'.

[xenofur]

so it's better if they are able to force their will onto us, being within the CoC and without anyone being able to do anything, than there being a force that makes it possible to oppose them and protect the weaker ones?

@oauitam: no it doesn't, you forgot to factor in 4 alts per player and free guild switching

and ryzom does need the outpost if nevrax doesn't want to admit to being an absolute failure and driving away LOTS of players

[vutescu]

Yep, that would solve it. One outpost per guild.

@ xeno: player police forces are way too ineffective. you need someone with a power comparable to a kami to be effective. I mean there should be no fight. 1 hit and that's all. It scares the hell out of someone and is effective even against teams. Believe me, I know what I'm talking. I'm part of this kind of "police" in other game. And in that game, 18 deaths = perm death.

I mean a "real fight" would award a griefer. Would give him what he wants: player vs player conflict. When is no fight, and he just dies in a blink... is like he gets his own medicine.

[thebax]

In reply to drizzeth's post #374-

I wasn't talking about supreme, or even excellent mats. Never mentioned them. I only mentioned choice. And when attempting to get said higher grade mats, even with a full team guarding a digger, when the digger dies they lose all mats. One-shot kills the digger. A KP will often wipe out a full group of 250 folks all dressed for battle. LIKE I SAID: not difficult, impossible.

The fact is, Neverax's insistance (and short-sighted players support of same) on over-powered mobs has created the requirement for people who need to make things for others with PR mats to do their harvesting in PvP zones. This renders those zones non-consensual, and I am sick and tired of people making any claim to the contrary, as such is complete and total bull.

Start blaming sociopathic behavior on an underlying chemical imbalance, an unhappy love-life, a lack of years, or the fact that the moyle slipped, but such feeble excuses for murder are an insult to anyone with basic reasoning skills.