Do we really need PvP?

[oauitam]

If you quote me please be so kind as to not take 6 words from a sentence about one subject and then 8 words from a sentence about a complete different subject as to generate a quote of something i never said in a context i never meant.

So...

I am glad this thread doesnt directly influence Nevrax' choice about how to implement outposts and the attached PVP.

I really hope for Nevrax that they will manage to do it in a way that brings back all those people waiting for pvp and outposts or something new in general.(content)

For everyone: pvp im sure will be a consentual matter.

For others: we are finally getting that outpost and kami/karavan story weve been told about since our first days of beta testing.

Faith is a nasty thing tho, we will see how many people come back to see part of the promises realised.

Same goes for the community after the pach, in the end we will see how it turns out. Im sure it turns out just fine tho.

now im out of this thread i think, been so long running dscussion
you never know tho, i might feel inclined to join in again

About the "Faith" bit;
Faith can be a nasty thing, it's what you have to fall back on when rationality fails.

About the last eight words;
And I wholeheartedly agree with what you meant to say;
I fervently hope it turns out just fine.

[Better? Certainly longer and less clarity.]

[xenofur]

I'm only posting to give you a devil's advocate to play with I stopped posting once highly pro-PvP people came in agreeing that it made no sense for the Nevrax company.

he agreed about full open pvp, which is something everyone here agrees an(except for a small village of stragglers... )
anyways, i'm still waiting for a solution to my riddle =)

[drizzeth]

So...
About the "Faith" bit;
Faith can be a nasty thing, it's what you have to fall back on when rationality fails.

Aye thats why confidence might have been a better word, the confidence (in)active players have left in Ryzom and if Outposts wil make them activate again or not.(or for that mater make them inactivate) As i meant it in a very rational down to earth way, based on past experiences, how do i forecaste future Ryzom development? That kind of confidence.

About the last eight words;
And I wholeheartedly agree with what you meant to say;
I fervently hope it turns out just fine.

[Better? Certainly longer and less clarity.]

Thank you, i think it is because people might just read the quote and never the other post where they originate from

All i all we both didnt mean harm, i didnt mean you harm by pointing out the quote and you didnt mean harm in quoting that way, oh well

[oauitam]

Sorry about that drizzeth. I was aware that my post was already so long that most people wouldn't read it and was making a conscious effort to save space. There were two snippets I wanted to comment on and I thought snipping them out would help and wouldn't have any ill effects. I know you appreciate that we all really don't want to start quoting every cogent post and going, "I agree" at the end of every line until we drop on the sentence at the end we have a different view on I'll try even harder not to snip possible relevancies now. (And sorry for accidentally bringing you back into a thread you wanted out of!)

i'm still waiting for a solution to my riddle =)

I'm sorry if your riddle is feeling ignored! I had a look back and didn't spot it, sorry. If it's useful to bring up again, would you mind reposting it or linking, please?

[xenofur]

http://www.ryzom.com/forum/showpost.php ... tcount=340
this either proves how ryzom needs pvp or will result in a perfect alternative that could be thrown at nevrax

[thebax]

I keep hearing a particular argument from the pro-PvP lobby that bugs the heck out of me. It has been repeatedly shot down, proven false, and basically shown to be completely wrong, but it continualy pops up again. Whether they missed the rebuttals because they were in the middle of writing a "The Non-PvPers wont listen to us" post, or they have developed selective blindness on the topic or simply some here-to-fore unknown example of typing-tourettes, I do not know.

I apollogize in advance to any who have read the aforementioned rebuttals before and understood them, or have arrived at the same conclusions through personal reasoning.

"No-one is forcing anyone to enter a free PvP zone. It is therefore consentual."

This is a lie, as well as complete bull.

It would be true:

IF all the resources available in PvP zones were available in non-PvP zones. They are? Hit US and get me 200 Shu fiber, 200 Moon resin, 100 Gulatch oil, and 100 Visc sap, all Q250, but choice grade is good enough, you have one hour.

IF there were some sort of stealth option available for harvesters to avoid the plethora of over-powered agro mobs in PR, as has been suggested both in the forums and in suggestions submitted in-game.

IF Mobs were balanced in power with players, as has been repeatedly pointed out by players as well as independent reviewers. Ie. :
A mob has the same base health/metabolism/sap, etc. as a player equal to its level.

A mob has "boosts" to whichever stats the developers deem necessary, but only equal to those available to a player of the same level.

A mob has dodge/parry/magical resistances/chance to hit, equal to players of the same level. I remember reading an explanation of dodge/parry awhile back, which seemed to imply that this was the case. Why then, can a level 30-something mob take me apart, when I have a dodge of 175, but I usually cannot land a single melee attack/spell on a mob which exceeds my level by 140?

A mob does damage and has physical resists both equal to a player of the same level, and with a maximum equal to player gear made from the same quality material that may be quartered from said mob.

A mob uses Health/Sap/Stam credits to perform its actions, exactly as a player must.

A mobs special attacks/ranged attacks are limitted to the same range restrictions as player's are. No more hitting from 200 meters (not lag, I'm talking about, say, being dropped standing in Cerakos Gate by the bandit shooting at me from his/her camp).

IF all of these were true, than the "you are not forced into PvP" statement would be true. But they are not, and it is not.

Some players have dedicated almost all of their playing time to providing for their fellow players, in and out of guild, often for free, just to make things easier/better for their fellow players. They cannot do that without entering PvP zones, as some places in PR are not simply "difficult", but impossible. I can speak with authority on this, as it is not unusual for me to spend hours getting a single load of mats, waiting for agro to thin enough to dodge in, grab a few, and escape before I am attacked. This, while difficult, and often annoying, is possible. Trying to complete one single pull at Q250 takes around 1.25-2 minutes to approach the source, prospect, dig the source, and retreat. If, as in the case of most (although, to be sure, not all) areas of non-PvP PR, wandering/patrolling mobs enter within agro-range every 30 seconds to a minute, ones which kill in one shot, that source FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES, DOES NOT EXIST.

PLEASE stop using the ridiculous argument that "By entering the PvP zone, you gave consent. Nobody forced you to come here. It is therefore our right to murder you." That statement is wrong on so very, very many levels.

[thebax]

http://www.ryzom.com/forum/showpost.php ... tcount=340
this either proves how ryzom needs pvp or will result in a perfect alternative that could be thrown at nevrax

This has, actually, been repeatedly addressed throught this thread, and the thread about outposts. Wandering mobs/bandits, land purchase, taxes, maintance, a real-estate market, etc.

[oauitam]

Thanks xenofur, got it now.

[Side notes;
I think we can safely assume the riddle is 'design outposts'. (There are plenty of good designers and ideas people around these boards. I'm not one of them but I feel obliged to have a stab now.)
I didn't reply to this post at the time because I felt it had trivial responses which didn't contribute to the question 'do we really need PvP' - one such response I will trot out in a minute. Apologies.]

take ryzom
set your goal to creating this game mechanic: guild-owned, extensible buildings that provider the owner certain benefits
do so without extensive changes on current game mechanics
do it in a way that prevents exploitation
do it without including any form of PvP

"any form of PvP" is extraordinarily vague. Assignation by random lottery would answer the question (and seems no fun for anyone). Let's try something more specific and more in-keeping with what this thread has been about.

Assuming "any form of PvP" means 'combat between player characters' then this question has been answered many times;
buy them
combat between players and NPCs
use diplomacy and/or fame
missions (maybe guild-sized)

...STOP

Actually, this is going to get silly. See this thread for many possible answers (all from people with better ideas than me).

[vutescu]

Well, I guess the "riddle" was for me.
Sollution. The ownership of the outposts is based on fame related missions. Only guilds with a certain amount of fame AND members can own them. Once aquired are guild property for ever... basically. But are some things that can make you to lose an outpost... and are not PvP.
1. Lack of dappers to pay the rent (it should be not one time fee but let's say... 5 mill dappers/day)
2. Lack of mats for outpost blacksmiths (let's say 100 fiber, 100 bark, 100... etc / day)
3. Lack of fame (doing too many -fame missions for other factions)
4. Lack of guildies. (let's say you need at least 30 members to own an outpost)

Where is PvP here? Is only PvE.

Advantages?
- Near q200-250 nodes with guard protection
- Storeplace
- Guild based NPC merchant (better items based on mats you provide)
- Mobs killed by guards have loot and is Guild loot. (it might be exploitable)


Guess that answers your question.

[xenofur]

actually no, the question i ask there hasn't been adressed yet, and i'm asking for details, not just general concepts that can be laid out any which way. the reason is that i don't think there is a feasible way to implement an exploit-free and pvp-free outpost system without fundamentally changing the game. also: yes by pvp i meant combat. this includes any aggressive actions against any part of a character or their belongings. well, something else you touched, it should be fun, but i thought that was way too obvious to need to mention it...