Ryzom

soulsnatcher wrote:A lot of people. past and present, have put a huge effort into Ryzom, both in development, support and playing - this abuse is almost an insult to our history. So just stop.

Doubly well said.

Don't know about anyone else but I'm sick of the bickering on all fronts.

Just as a side note for those who might be interested in the ryzom.org alternative.. Yesterday night, on an urgent meeting, the Free Software Foundation (http://www.fsf.org), the most important entity in the Free Software world, is now supporting the "Free Ryzom Campaign" and has made a donation pledge of $60.000 (around 45.000&#8364 to help raise the offer.

Stay tuned to both webpages if you want to know more.

rheda wrote:Just as a side note for those who might be interested in the ryzom.org alternative.. Yesterday night, on an urgent meeting, the Free Software Foundation (http://www.fsf.org), the most important entity in the Free Software world, is now supporting the "Free Ryzom Campaign" and has made a donation pledge of $60.000 (around 45.000€) to help raise the offer.

Stay tuned to both webpages if you want to know more.

If Richard Stallman put his fanatics hands near the game, I'll go far, far away and very very quickly.

OMG, I really don't want that destiny for Ryzom.

rheda wrote:Just as a side note for those who might be interested in the ryzom.org alternative.. Yesterday night, on an urgent meeting, the Free Software Foundation (www.fsf.org), the most important entity in the Free Software world, is now supporting the "Free Ryzom Campaign" and has made a donation pledge of $60.000 (around 45.000&#8364 to help raise the offer.

Stay tuned to both webpages if you want to know more.

In my opinion, this is very good news, *if* you consider only the "get a fully functional client / server GPL state-of-art MMRPG for a fraction of the cost to develop it" side of the story (grossly approach, 12M € vs 200k €, grossly, yes, hard to estimate the cost of producing it, not the cost of running the service)

Does it give credibility to the ORG project? Is it reassuring? time will tell, but I tend to think that my main concern is not the opening of the code, whether it is free, GPL, closed source.... it's the *game service* itself: how it is run, how it is operated, and yes, future expansions and feature additions. Can the ORG project be successful? yes. But I have doubts, of course... the "let's get one server up and running, multilanguage, we will see how we manage the RP, the events, the timezones, then we'll see, etc.". As a player, considering the game that I have played for the last 2 years, I would like seamless continuity: ideally a MMRPG company / publisher that can afford a professionally run CSR service, a reasonable sized dev team that delivers, maintain the 4 shards and so on. The ORG project, as noble, interesting and potentially successful as it may be, may need months to set up the required infrastructure.

For the FSF such a GPL'ed big software project makes a lot of sense: strategic (gaming), size, etc. But it does not tell a lot about the future of the Saga and direction of the game. Does it?

Finally, the liquidation process started today, and it seems that the final decision will be given on Thursday afternoon, Paris Local Time, with little to no room for negotiations. Maybe this announcement will make it for then. In any case, all seems to imply that best offer wins all tomorrow.

iphdrunk wrote: "let's get one server up and running, multilanguage, we will see how we manage the RP, the events, the timezones, then we'll see, etc.". As a player, considering the game that I have played for the last 2 years, I would like seamless continuity: ideally a MMRPG company / publisher that can afford a professionally run CSR service, a reasonable sized dev team that delivers and so on. The ORG project, as noble, interesting and potentially successful as it may be, will reauire months to set up the required infrastructure.

For the FSF such a GPL'ed big software project makes a lot of sense: strategic (gaming), size, etc. But it does not tell a lot about the future of the Saga and direction of the game. Does it?

Finally, the liquidation process started today, and it seems that the final decision will be given on Thursday afternoon, Paris Local Time, with little to no room for negotiations. Maybe this announcement will make it for then. In any case, all seems to imply that best offer wins all tomorrow.

I think and would hope that if the code is going in the trash bin these guys do get it (assuming they are legitimate and able to do what they claim in 2-3 years maybe we will see something of substance hehe) . For the future of this community though its not the best option at all. I guess I am fearful that this game I am playing now is toast. Do I want to wait long months or possibly years to play a game which will be quite antiquated by then and out of date and start from scratch? The answer is No. It would break my heart and seem quite anticlimactic. For people who have never touched this game there is hope. I"m sure the rest of us will be doing other things before they are ready to release a single server.

Then of course there is the "splintering" which will occur as discussions progress groups will by nature splinter off and want their own ryzom vision this is a side effect of this type of project which cannot be stopped. It will further weaken whatever community that would exist. So as a project on its own it has merit. As a the game Ryzom it does not. Anyone I think who feels otherwise about this particular option is just not being realistic in my view. Of course these are all opinions and not much more hehe, but being a realist I'm not usualy far off the mark.

I just hope a gaming company is buying this game still. It deserves to live! ^^

ummax wrote:Do I want to wait long months or possibly years to play a game which will be (...) For people who have never touched this game there is hope. I"m sure the rest of us will be doing other things before they are ready to release a single server (...)

Then of course there is the "splintering" (...) own ryzom vision this is a side effect of this type of project which cannot be stopped.

This is in part, my views.... Would it be cool to have Ryzom GPL ? yeah!, sure.. even if just for the artworks... but what will I be playing in 3-4 months time? To me there are like 2 simple questions: "would you give money and support the idea of GPLing such a huge project?" and "what is the best solution from a pure players gaming-experience point of view?".

People often mention successful projects such as Linux Kernel, Apache, Openoffice, Firefox.... but, how many years passed between Netscape opening the code of 4.X (iirc) and Firefox 2.0? how many talented coders are working on it? wasn't a rewrite almost from scratch needed? how many gecko-based browsers appeared and died? how long did it take from StarOffice migrating to OpenOffice --with Sun support---? Wasn't the first Linux Kernel like in 1991? these projects take months to develop a solid productive community.

It can be done, yes, I give you that... but in a short period of time? one thing is to set up a Phpbb forum, a mailing list, a bugzilla.... the other is to have the ball rolling, and to assure continuity at a various levels. An open, community based project is *potentially* very good. Lots of room for creativity, innovative ideas... etc. but one of the questions I am asking is whether I am willing to wait the "transition" period? (at a competitive subscription fee, of course)

In any case, I am afraid that whatever the outcome of this may be... I have little hopes concerning a flow of feature additions -- truly new, not features that have been hoping forth and back from devs boxes to Q&A teams and that supposedly 'on the pipe' for months-- and I am guessing a new "spring clean" will be around (NIH syndrome, anyone?). As a friend told me "this game looks like being in 'maintenance mode' for a while". I honestly thing that the chances of a dev team ressuming work where left and improving things in a small time window are slim.... We shall see, as usual

mithur wrote:If Richard Stallman put his fanatics hands near the game, I'll go far, far away and very very quickly.

Ehh, I'm not quite sure what you mean by this.... In a way he already did, long before the game was even released.

- Tools used (compilers, SCM e.t.a.) - products of GNU
- Engine of Ryzom - licenced under GPL
- Host machines for development - Linux (most of it is GNU)

So what part of this is it that you haven't enjoyed so far? If you have anything specific to criticize, please do.

Having FSF now *actively* support us is a *great* encouragement. It will give us much more credibility with the court, and it will (and has already) drawn much more attention towards us. Among others BBC World Service, (broadcasted inernationaly) had an interview with Xavier this morning. We get people seriously supportive of free (liberated) software popping into our discussions from everywhere now, wishing us luck and making donation pledges. I for one feel great confidence in this project.

Anissa wrote:But it does not tell a lot about the future of the Saga and direction of the game. Does it?

True Anissa, but nothing really does. At least with our alternative the discussion is open and everyone is welcome to join.

Regarding the keeping of the service alive and open, I have absolutely no doubt this will be easily manageable. To begin with, all will be kept as today (i.e. with Jolt) until everything settles. What comes next, if for you and me and everyone else wanting to contribute to decide.

Freedom doesn't ever really come free. It's just a suggestion and an opportunity of choice. But that's not so bad, is it?

Info about FSF regarding ryzom.org: http://www.ryzom.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=132

Ok, I apologyze. I have been very rude in my last post.

But I really hate the zealotism of Richard Stallman (The FSF Leader, for those of you who don't know it) and theyr politicals views.

For a start, one of their mains objectives will be porting ryzom to Linux, It will take a lot of efford, that's for sure. Surely it will still run in windows at the end, but my think is that the developing efford could be done in something else.

My second concern is the politcal side. I want Ryzon being a reference in the MMRPG world, not a flag for the free software. I've been with the Open Source software for ten years now, but I'm agaisnt the radicalization of the FSF. I'm more in the way of thinking of Torvalds. I can stand with a GPL Ryzon, but no with a FSF Ryzon. It's not the same.

In any way, that's my opinion. I respect and even admire the efford you are doing, but I'm in the other side, and this new is a very bad new for me, because the last option is no longer an option for me.

fattus wrote: Regarding the keeping of the service alive and open, I have absolutely no doubt this will be easily manageable. To begin with, all will be kept as today (i.e. with Jolt) until everything settles. What comes next, if for you and me and everyone else wanting to contribute to decide.

Freedom doesn't ever really come free. It's just a suggestion and an opportunity of choice. But that's not so bad, is it?http://www.ryzom.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=132

Honestly, I feel weird/bad when I consider that I may be unfairly and somehow "bashing" this project, specially when confronted to optimistic and valid but opposed opinions and views -- although I would not think I am actually bashing, I'd say I am rather being vocal about possible "issues" that one may expect... -- and I do respect the (healthy) optimism and motivation that you, amongst others, share.

Nevertheless, while your statements are unarguably true, they do not seem to address the issues I raise. You state that "will be easily manageable". I have my doubts, (just to name a few, when e.g. French RP players may be alienated by having to coexist with German players, conflicting or opposed views on how to go on, timezones, resiliance and scalability, etc...), and others...like having losses to absorb at the beginning, etc, etc.

Until everything settles

I guess that by this you mean "when we have an infrastructure set by M. Lacambre to provide one server hosting service" and "until new volunteering or paiud devs have opened/understood the code", or in general terms, when we have developed a solid community and a robust infrastructire on top of which we can create... and this is what I referred to as spanning months and years... and, uhm... without mentioning that MMRPGs customers tend to be vocal w.r.t asking for ETAs, planned additions, etc... it may clash with the more loose "when it's done" approach. My "everything settles" is for now, measured in months, too.

Freedom doesn't ever really come free

True, you don't need to convince me about freedom and choice. But for me, personally, in other contexts, such as when I need to evaluate the TCO of one solution to another, when my personal or political views have some impact or any other circumstances. The freedom / free as in beer/speech is not suitable for all (paying) audiences, or when the important factor may be as simple as percieved gaming experience and quality of service. Freedom here may refer to an 'attribute' of the software and also, to the way the game will continue and be developed. To the later, it is not clear it will be the optimum approach, or if it is, how long will the transition period last.

There are good, positive arguments and yes, this project can go as high as all willing to contribute can. The itch comes when I consider myself, lets say a "passive / consumer" player. I respect that ORG project defendors are specially those that are a priori more willing to contribute but, in this context, I am more a "lazy" customer.... For a similar amount of money, which solution will provide the best-fun-for-the-buck?

thanks for reading.

mithur wrote:Ok, I apologyze. I have been very rude in my last post..

Thats OK, I'm all for a healthy discussion

For a start, one of their mains objectives will be porting ryzom to Linux, It will take a lot of efford, that's for sure. Surely it will still run in windows at the end, but my think is that the developing efford could be done in something else.

No, no, no - absolutely no way lol. Forcing people into using Linux will NEVER happen Ryzom could be ported, it's really not that an overwhelming task. Nothing is decided yet, and is a matter of priority - getting/keeping the shards up has priority #1. Besides if it ever gets ported, it will be based on whether some-one has an "ich" for it or not. I can guarantee you one thing tho, that the fees from the community will go to support, maintenance and *game* development - and not to platform development frenzies.

My second concern is the politcal side. I want Ryzon being a reference..

Hmm, well yes - that is a tricky issue I admit. If someone feels really awkward about FSF on those grounds then it's really nothing that can be done about it. I will not say it's either one way or the other, When it comes to GNU/FSF I personally listen to what appeals to me, and don't bother much about the rest...

In any way, that's my opinion. I respect and even admire the efford you are doing, but I'm in the other side

Thanx buddy, I appreciate your words and I respect you too

(See, now who said we can't talk like civilized people )