I dont want to sound negative or anything but i really dont understand :
Why would someone play a rpg if they dont want to fight ? I played pen & paper D&D and i cant see how it could be fun without fighting. Ive played MUDs too and i cant see...
Why wouldnt they play life sims like Second Life or The Sims Online instead ?
sorry but i really dont understand.
Greate gameplay, no depth.
Re: Greate gameplay, no depth.
This horse has been beaten so damn badly that it's hard to tell it was a horse to begin with. Now it's just a rotten, stinking pile of pulp - strangely comparable to rotten, stinking pile of redundant BS.
"Z"
RRA
RRA
Re: Greate gameplay, no depth.
That is a good question, and certainly a reasonable suggestion. Indeed, I do enjoy playing The Sims 2 almost as much as I enjoy playing a game like Doom 3. Usually the two are not mixed, especially in single-player games, because the development of both in a single game usually results in two very different play-styles that are both weaker than they could have been if all of the effort of the development staff was geared towards a single play-style. This is why the state of the industry at this time (and throughout history) has been a place where someone who is in the mood for combat plays a combat game, and somebody who enjoys more peaceful pursuits plays puzzle or simulation games. The only obvious genre that transcends this boundary and appeals to both audiences with a fair amount of success would be the strategy genre which brilliantly dabbles in both areas.trosky wrote:I dont want to sound negative or anything but i really dont understand :
Why would someone play a rpg if they dont want to fight ? I played pen & paper D&D and i cant see how it could be fun without fighting. Ive played MUDs too and i cant see...
Why wouldnt they play life sims like Second Life or The Sims Online instead ?
sorry but i really dont understand.
It is in fact the strategy genre that I will use as an example for why a player may want the two opposing forces of game-play in the same setting -- for, as you can clearly imagine, an online RPG is strikingly similar to traditional strategy games, with the viewpoint of a soldier (or officer, depending on how others view you) on the ground instead of an all-powerful lord in the air. For the same reasons why you would want a baker, a blacksmith, a carpenter, or farmers in a strategy game, you would also want them in an online RPG. Yet, unlike overhead strategy games, role-playing games bring you to a much more intimate level with your surroundings and the virtual lives of those around you, which cries for much more intimate interactions with the objects in the virtual world.
Many online games choose to fill the non-combat roles with NPCs, which is fine if they only want to appeal to combat-oriented types. Unlike the single-player games, though, MMORPGs have a never-ending development cycle and constant income with more than enough manpower to create both a combat and non-combat game at the same time and make both as good as either could be even if all development was concentrated. This has the unparalleled advantage of attracting two large player-bases, but also creates a place where they can be mixed seamlessly to create a vibrant world where the two sides can coexist in a constant balance of mutual support.
If you have ever played UO, you will know what I mean. A good example I saw on another site was how a simple thing like a tree can become so much more useful and alive in a world with both sides of the playing field. This is not the same example, but you will see what I mean (in UO):
Take an ordinary tree -- you pass them all the time.
I can walk up to the tree and use my knife to carve away some bark to create kindling. With that kindling, I can light a camp fire, and with that fire I can roast a bird that I had killed. After eating the bird, I could use a bedroll and lay next to the fire to safely log out under the protection of the warm flicker.
When I awaken, I might choose to go back to that same tree, or perhaps another. I might choose to get out my axe and practice a bit of lumberjacking (which not only produces logs, but also increases my strength and combat ability when using an axe) on it. From those logs, I can do many things.
I could use my knife once more to create arrow shafts. Using the feathers from the bird I had eaten earlier, I can create arrows, or bolts, depending on my preference. Perhaps I might also use some of the wood to create a bow or even crossbow to use with the arrows with.
Then again, I might not like archery. Perhaps Ill get some nails and a hammer and create a nice oak table with some chairs to put in my dining room. Hrm, a bed perhaps? Or even just a staff to walk with. If I was a warrior, I might make a wooden shield. Perhaps even a fishing pole?
Oh, I know, I could make a loom and spinning wheel with all the wood I have! Now, after finding some sheep or gathering some cotton, I have a whole new world of possibilities.
You can see where this is going With a few basic systems, you create an endless array of things to do that can be either combat-supportive or having nothing to do with combat, but still have fun. I know a great number of people enjoy simply making their own furniture for their houses or fishing on a ship in the middle of the ocean hoping to find a treasure map in a bottle or just a lot of good-tasting fish. Even more enjoy taming animals, farming, cooking, and other non-combat pursuits.
Whats nice, though, is that those of you who just want to kill things will never be forced to walk up to a tree and say hello to the world of possibilities it offers.
Re: Greate gameplay, no depth.
Teleios posted his web site's addy, THERE be the back story, ALL of Homin history that we have found, or pulled from the lips of our dying great great great great grand parents: http://sor.warcry.com/scripts/colum...?site=63&id=258
Teleios THANK YOU! For THIS is EXACTLY the backstory that I was talking about. THIS might be what they are adding into game, and that would be WHY they removed it from the offical Ryzom site, to MAKE us LOOK in the game, which is ok, I will find it. BUT I want, and obviously NOT just me, ALL of the story to gaze at BEFORE I have to find all of it.
Not sure how we are going to discover it, but I am betting on PR "ruins" that are not in game yet, and maybe lootable NON rotting items like a book or a scroll that we NEED for furthering the storyline AND the development of the game.
Ok, FINALLY a reason to level my melee other than putting on Medium and Heavy armor of a higher Q than what I have
Enjoy and THANK Teleios.
Teleios THANK YOU! For THIS is EXACTLY the backstory that I was talking about. THIS might be what they are adding into game, and that would be WHY they removed it from the offical Ryzom site, to MAKE us LOOK in the game, which is ok, I will find it. BUT I want, and obviously NOT just me, ALL of the story to gaze at BEFORE I have to find all of it.
Not sure how we are going to discover it, but I am betting on PR "ruins" that are not in game yet, and maybe lootable NON rotting items like a book or a scroll that we NEED for furthering the storyline AND the development of the game.
Ok, FINALLY a reason to level my melee other than putting on Medium and Heavy armor of a higher Q than what I have
Enjoy and THANK Teleios.
Re: Greate gameplay, no depth.
Very good explanation, i know some games other then UO offers this kind of gameplay. I might be biased because i really dont like games like The Sims, ive played mmorpgs with some of the elements you mentionned (crafting furniture, making fire, cooking) and i can see how they can be a great addition to a rpg. However it seems like you think of mmorpgs as virtual worlds while i think of mmorpgs as tradionnal role playing games. I never had the possibility to build "useless" stuff in D&D or in the various MUDs ive played. I guess things have changed with mmorpgs because MUDs and D&D arent virtual world.
Re: Greate gameplay, no depth.
Useless is a definition of perception. A chair, which is likely useless to you, isnt to me, because I pride myself on a well-furnished guild house which appeals to potential members with a sense of class.trosky wrote:Very good explanation, i know some games other then UO offers this kind of gameplay. I might be biased because i really dont like games like The Sims, ive played mmorpgs with some of the elements you mentionned (crafting furniture, making fire, cooking) and i can see how they can be a great addition to a rpg. However it seems like you think of mmorpgs as virtual worlds while i think of mmorpgs as tradionnal role playing games. I never had the possibility to build "useless" stuff in D&D or in the various MUDs ive played. I guess things have changed with mmorpgs because MUDs and D&D arent virtual world.
The real difference between D&D games and current MMORPGs is that a much larger variety of people are being exposed to, and playing, them. No longer is it just the D&D people. Even then, though, I know my mother (an old-school D&D fan) enjoyed making settings for the adventures. In many ways, the non-combat roles in MMORPGs help fill the void that was once filled by your imagination they create the world in which the adventures take place. Instead of imagining a chair, you build it.
Even in single-player RPGs (namely the Ultima series, still, which dates back to when I was a wee little boy banging on pots and pans) can pull off non-combat roles quite well -- stopping during your journey to take up a job as baker so that you can earn some extra money for that nice set of armor, or perhaps just to make bread, was a nice feature in my mind, but one which was also completely optional and easily ignored.
Re: Greate gameplay, no depth.
I played a pen and paper AD&D free form game, I think I ended up with more xp in barkeeping and theivery than melee. Mostly from the skills of the half race that our Monty Hall (the guy on Let's make a deal) DM let us play.
If I recall that campaign correctly I was a Half Siren/half High elven theif/cleric/mage, my bouncer was Half oger half OWL BEAR and was a MAGE...yes you heard it RIGHT, with an intellegence of a GREEN PEA he had three spells... Knock (bend bars lift gates roll with a strength OFF the scale LOL)...Fly (throw the flier take 1D4 damage upon landing LOL) and a few others that played off his strength as well, and best you do NOT tell him he was NOT a mage...OOO that did go poorly.
I forget what the others were, but it was a MOTELY band I do tell you. It was not your standard meet once a week group either, this was a USO on the Naval station NEAR the old Orlando Naval training base. OPEN ended as can be, all you had to do was agree to play nice and you could roll up and join us. We had a few odds and ends, a British naval guy joined once, and a few other "exchange students" as well.
Why role play if you are NOT fighting, LOL please, Life is NOT all about fighting. I actually did some SERIOUS research of somethings the characters did or wanted to do BEFORE the internet. Like setting up an Herbal Healing set, found the WHOLE list of herbs that would have been found and used in midevel Great Britian which was the LOOSE area we were based in. I got clerical XP for each poltice or tea I made. Made a FORTUNE too.
We left town ONCE...to find Jhumm's lost stuffy (Jhumm was the Ogre Owl Bear) he lost his stuffed Owlbear toy in a near by forest. We each gained about three levels, and only killed TWICE. I managed to sing charm the rest as pets, although what I was going to use a Kobold for is beyond me. He didn't make decent drinks...that is for sure (it could heal you for 1D6 or harm you for 1d4 50/50 chance). We also found a tower with a HUGE library that was no longer occupied (10% chance and we rolled a FIVE LOL), So...I moved IN to it, and the Kobold was the housekeeper.
If you are the fighter TYPE, then you are into hack and slash. This group was NOT into hack and slash.
Same DM...different campaign and characters... We had to figure out how to avoid various traps by certain spells to disarm them. Try it with a rogue, well let's just say that the theives guild REFUSED to see us anymore...due in LARGE part to the HUGE depletion in their membership
I accidentally figured out the first trap by casting a burning hands spell to start a fire...(I think that was the DM's gimme helping hand nature that LET us win that one)
We also came up with a Mana system that was based off of wisdom or Intellegence, constitution, level and I forget what else. We basically let the player cast ANY spell UPTO his/her level, and took the Gygax model and chucked it in the ash can.
Point is...there is SO much more to a world than JUST the monsters to kill, there is the clothing/armor to wear, the books of history to read, the spells to FIND and learn, the world to explore. Pen and paper your DM HAD to be a GOOD story teller, not QUITE as detailed as Tolkein (let's just say I HAD to read the Hobbit, the UNeditted version...for a school project, out of a class of 20, I was the ONLY person to finish it. The rest of the class PROTESTED the uneditted and bought the cliff notes to finish it.), but good enough that you could SEE the world.
If I recall that campaign correctly I was a Half Siren/half High elven theif/cleric/mage, my bouncer was Half oger half OWL BEAR and was a MAGE...yes you heard it RIGHT, with an intellegence of a GREEN PEA he had three spells... Knock (bend bars lift gates roll with a strength OFF the scale LOL)...Fly (throw the flier take 1D4 damage upon landing LOL) and a few others that played off his strength as well, and best you do NOT tell him he was NOT a mage...OOO that did go poorly.
I forget what the others were, but it was a MOTELY band I do tell you. It was not your standard meet once a week group either, this was a USO on the Naval station NEAR the old Orlando Naval training base. OPEN ended as can be, all you had to do was agree to play nice and you could roll up and join us. We had a few odds and ends, a British naval guy joined once, and a few other "exchange students" as well.
Why role play if you are NOT fighting, LOL please, Life is NOT all about fighting. I actually did some SERIOUS research of somethings the characters did or wanted to do BEFORE the internet. Like setting up an Herbal Healing set, found the WHOLE list of herbs that would have been found and used in midevel Great Britian which was the LOOSE area we were based in. I got clerical XP for each poltice or tea I made. Made a FORTUNE too.
We left town ONCE...to find Jhumm's lost stuffy (Jhumm was the Ogre Owl Bear) he lost his stuffed Owlbear toy in a near by forest. We each gained about three levels, and only killed TWICE. I managed to sing charm the rest as pets, although what I was going to use a Kobold for is beyond me. He didn't make decent drinks...that is for sure (it could heal you for 1D6 or harm you for 1d4 50/50 chance). We also found a tower with a HUGE library that was no longer occupied (10% chance and we rolled a FIVE LOL), So...I moved IN to it, and the Kobold was the housekeeper.
If you are the fighter TYPE, then you are into hack and slash. This group was NOT into hack and slash.
Same DM...different campaign and characters... We had to figure out how to avoid various traps by certain spells to disarm them. Try it with a rogue, well let's just say that the theives guild REFUSED to see us anymore...due in LARGE part to the HUGE depletion in their membership
I accidentally figured out the first trap by casting a burning hands spell to start a fire...(I think that was the DM's gimme helping hand nature that LET us win that one)We also came up with a Mana system that was based off of wisdom or Intellegence, constitution, level and I forget what else. We basically let the player cast ANY spell UPTO his/her level, and took the Gygax model and chucked it in the ash can.
Point is...there is SO much more to a world than JUST the monsters to kill, there is the clothing/armor to wear, the books of history to read, the spells to FIND and learn, the world to explore. Pen and paper your DM HAD to be a GOOD story teller, not QUITE as detailed as Tolkein (let's just say I HAD to read the Hobbit, the UNeditted version...for a school project, out of a class of 20, I was the ONLY person to finish it. The rest of the class PROTESTED the uneditted and bought the cliff notes to finish it.), but good enough that you could SEE the world.
Re: Greate gameplay, no depth.
trosky wrote:I dont want to sound negative or anything but i really dont understand :
Why would someone play a rpg if they dont want to fight ? I played pen & paper D&D and i cant see how it could be fun without fighting. Ive played MUDs too and i cant see...
Why wouldnt they play life sims like Second Life or The Sims Online instead ?
sorry but i really dont understand.
1) For many people it's not that they don't want to fight, it's that they don't want to fight without a specific purpose in mind. I don't mean to get levels either. I mean a specific reason within the context of the game. Killing the Kitins at the entrace of the Prime Roots in order to be able to enter the PR is a good example of that.
2) Many people just don't like to compete with others and in most games that is what it comes down to.
3) Many people enjoy using their mind and stategy to solve something. 99% of combat can be won simply by having a high enough level, powerful enough weapon, and strong enough armor/protection. There is no challenge in that and many view it as pointless and boring.
Re: Greate gameplay, no depth.
I must say when I read stuff like this in the forums I find myself more confused. For those of us (I suspect the majority) who haven't been playing the game since early beta, and haven't spent extensive time researching the history of Ryzom, the main sources of information are twofold. First, the few paragraphs on the homepage, which are frankly a bit confusing and give only a tiny bit of information. Second, and probably more important, the advertisements in various gaming mags that describe the game. It was based on those advertisements that I decided to give the game a try.trosky wrote: Kittins are not at war, they may occasionnaly attack cities but we are refuges of the Kittins big war...
Now, you shouldn't have to be some type of expert to have a feel for the overall "big picture" going on with this game. My understanding is that the Kitin pretty much wiped us out, and we're trying to regain a foothold. The story and advertisements all suggested that there is still hostility between homin and kitin, and that reclaiming our planet would be a difficult tooth and nail struggle. Regions might go back and forth. Thus my confusion to find out that the kitin we seen near the cities (called kippee) aren't even hostile. There also seems to be no "big-picture" struggle going on, but perhaps that will be added over time. Still, even now, it would have been nice to see the kitin as a malevolent force that still cause problems for us on a small scale. Perhaps they've pulled back (for the time being) for whatever reason, but the remnants should still be hostile. I expected to find roving groups of kitins that would attack the unwary player, not groups of growling bugs that just sit there doing nothing. So forgive me for being confused, but it's hard to reconcile what I think I know about Ryzom with the behavior of the kitins in-game currently.
Doctor Z.
Re: Greate gameplay, no depth.
And once again Raynes comes up with my exact thoughts, and says them in MUCH fewer words. *bows to Raynes*
*to others* *points to Raynes*
what he said.
*to others* *points to Raynes*
what he said.
raynes wrote:1) For many people it's not that they don't want to fight, it's that they don't want to fight without a specific purpose in mind. I don't mean to get levels either. I mean a specific reason within the context of the game. Killing the Kitins at the entrace of the Prime Roots in order to be able to enter the PR is a good example of that.
2) Many people just don't like to compete with others and in most games that is what it comes down to.
3) Many people enjoy using their mind and stategy to solve something. 99% of combat can be won simply by having a high enough level, powerful enough weapon, and strong enough armor/protection. There is no challenge in that and many view it as pointless and boring.