Neutrality

[gralen]

Zzeii, I had only seen the Karavan officers, had no idea that there were actual Tryker representing the Karavan but the Tryker's use of the the word demon to describe the Kami flies in the face of general Tryker belief:

The Karavan :
The Karavan stand watch over hominkind and assure their security in case the Dragon rises or any other nefarious entity menaces. But since the Great Swarming many Trykers have come to keep their distance feeling that the Karavan have not entirely lived up to their role as Guardians.

The Kamis :
These strange and powerful entities are essentially good as they love and take care of the environment. Indeed, it is said that the earliest Trykers were the first favorites of the Kamis. For generations they dawdled in the paradise of Atys at one with the Kamis until the day the Fyros began ravishing the Bark and liberating fire. As a consequence, in need of calm and healing, the Kamis grew closer to the Zoraïs.
http://www.ryzom.com/?page=civilizations_tryker

Learning that a Tryker has so wholly abandoned the above views in favor of the Karavan brings a number of things to mind, most of which I'll dwell upon myself. Whether seen in a positive or a negative light, your information has given me cause to wonder.

It has been mentioned already now, so let me throw some fuel on the fire: Note the faces of the well known Kamis in Tryker, Matis and Fyros lands. Their faces and the masks of kinship we Zoraï wear all have "horns". Now think on the helmets of the Karavan and the protrubences that adorn them, I see a very distinct similarity. It is stated that the Kamis are able to change their form

Strange and eerie entities capable of taking on various appearances, the Kamis constitute a major influence on Atys and its habitants.
http://www.ryzom.com/?page=factions_kami

What if the Kami and the Karavan are actually two general castes of the same race? What if, as the name mask of kinship suggests, they are actually more advanced homins just as the four races are more advanced than their primitive cousins (Cutes, Frahars, Gibbaïs and extinct Momos)?

It is without question that this dicussion has raised many more questions than it has answered.

As to what the Goo is, it appears as a purple wasteland. It emits a constant purple haze which. Occasionally, large Goo nodes (http://www.comitatuspraetorian.uni.cc/m ... page&pid=4) can be found. Goo infected creatures tend to have purple blotches on them like lurid sores. Stepping onto Goo or standing in Goo mists can cause harm to a Homin, wander far enough into the Goo and it will kill instantly.

Currently, we Homins have no ability to directly impact the Goo.

[trosky]

My father once said to me : Dont believe what others will say to you about something ; experience, analyse and build your own opinion.

I encoutered my first Kami on the top of the Hill near Fairheaven, he was friendly with me and I couldnt see anything wrong with them. I met my second Kami in the Jungle, he was also friendly and he sold me tickets to come and see him again.

I encoutered my first Karavan in Tryker Newbie Island and I have encoutered many since. They have been very helpfull and never caused any bad things, not like the Fyros or the Matis.

Im also pro-technology if applyed in a respectfull way for the ecosystem. I know both the Kami and the Karavan fixed the mess created by the Fyros and helped save Atys.

So I dont see the Kami nor the Karavan as a threat to the Homins. Maybe the situation will change but to respect my father i have to wait and see.

Call me an opportunist if you want, but you are actually judging them on rumours, assumptions and beliefs.

Judging people according to their look is what my father hated the most. The Kamis are cute, too cute... but that doesnt mean anything. The Karavans hide themselves (but they are sexy... ) and that doesnt mean anything ether.

As my father taught me, Im still waiting for some real observations to make my opinion.

[thexdane]

True enough, I suppose. You and I obviously play this game differently and get enjoyment out of different aspects of it. I like telling stories about my character and the events that she was involved in, and fleshing them out. You don't put much value on that, and so we disagree. I do wish that you would be more respectful, though, rather than making statements like:

I don't have a problem with my character being labeled a traitor, and I don't think that anything that I have posted so far suggests that I do; but I do take issue when people make ugly statements towards me.

Why all the hostility?

yes you do have a problem with it or you wouldn't have been in this discussion as much as you have been.

you are an opportunistic. you are taking advantage that your guild "participated" and "defended" your homeland. i'm sure that if the karavan was the winning side you would be saying how you helped them and blah blah

this isn't the only time you have been like this tho, the thing is you can't have one set of rules somewhere and yet follow another set somewhere else.

i mean let's say you feel like roleplaying in around chat and then make racist remarks in region chat but say "oh that's not a roleplaying area" i'm sorry but that just does not happen

you are trying to have the best of both worlds and unfortunately you can't have that.

tho i will agree with what zzei has been saying and actually formalize her saying

the enemy of my enemy is my friend

for real world example

in china just before ww2 there was a civil war going on. when the japanese invaded BOTH sides united and fought as one to push back the japanese and their advances into japan.

[tinpony]

yes you do have a problem with it or you wouldn't have been in this discussion as much as you have been.

you are an opportunistic. you are taking advantage that your guild "participated" and "defended" your homeland. i'm sure that if the karavan was the winning side you would be saying how you helped them and blah blah.

Well, to counterpoint here....

Zzei said: "Fame can always be undone, and it isn't a monumental task to achieve it. Just some perserverence. And you had no prior knowledge of what amount of fame impact would have been given."

Granted that they had no prior knowledge, but the idea that fame can be 'undone' is far more of an oportunistic stance than not taking part in the raid in my opinion. If you sincerely believe that defending your home against a malicious army, foiling their invasions and killing their leaders... following that up with returning to their camp the next day to rearm, reclothe and re-equip them for their next assault on your lands them is the 'better' stance then I will politely disagree with your assessment and with Zzei's.

In addition, completing the raid makes you kill-on-site to those tribes. There will be no more fame missions to help them. The only way to undo that fame is to do pro-karavan missions and LoT have stated that they are Kami aligned. They are not neutral, they are Kami. The only way to participate in the Tryker raid is to put aside their beliefs which they did not do.

Kaena from LoT was with me and Grear as we scouted out the potential invasion sites. In fact she died (with DP on) during that trip. So, Kaena stepped up and helped her Kami neighbours and got nothing for it. There were at least one or two other Trykers from the same guild with us during the fight. More could have come but as was pointed out, they lacked the knowledge that the Roots guardians would not be spawning. Even without the roots guards spawns, almost all other mobs were still in place. It may not have been possible for everyone to make the trip to Zora to assist in the Kami battle.

For those who did not want to be profiteers and pander to all sides of the fight, and who did not agree with the Karavan, they chose the options they felt served their lands best. Most people seem to be acting as though LoT is neutral completely, which they (as far as I know) are not. They are kami aligned.

To continue with your Asian history lesson: The Japanese, seeing Christianity as a threat to their largely Buddhist and Shinto beliefs, crucified a group of Christians on a hill in (I believe) Satsuma. As a Japanese Christian, would you have helped them crucify your fellow believers for the betterment of your country (and done a 'whoops, bad me' to God and your church later) or would you have stuck to your beliefs and suffered ridicule and persecution from your countrymen? Country versus belief is a far different debate than country versus country.

(And, oh God, I do not want to start a religious debate here. I simply want to make a point on this)

Tin.

[brackish]

First let me start off by saying I do not speak for all of Light of Trykoth.

During the Event in question, I personally did not take part in the defense of Aedea Aqueous.
Two Reasons:
(1) A Kitin Invasion could not be confirmed.
(2) I was not convinced that by aiding the defense I would inadvertently receive Karavan Fame and impact the work and time that many guildees have spent.

I could have went to BB anyway and helped in any way i could with other members of my guild but i didnt. They went and did what they thought was right and I personally stand by them. They went with the information they had at the time.
A couple of our members went to Zorai to help their defenses. As a member that could not make that trek i stayed here in the lakelands debating whether to, as you say, "aid the enemy of my enemy."
You are right to say that Fame can be reversed, but because we were in new territory with trophies and the like, i had no information or prior knowledge to go from. I chose not to walk blindly into battle and help.

I will not quit.
I do expect to be judged by my actions or inaction.
I do plan on uniting with other Homins in the fight to send the Kitin back where the came from. You can rely on us for that purpose. That is what was agreed upon at the summit.

You cannot expect me to help you hunt down somthing that the Karavan is giving out Fame in exchange for trophies found in battle.
The only information I had was what was given here on the forums at the immediate time before the event and what the Homin and Karavan Recruiter told me in Windemere.

Aedea Aqueous is our home. I am not sure at what point I would have decided that Fame and my devotion to the Kami would have taken a backseat. Maybe when the creatures in question exited Bounty Beaches and entered Liberty Lakes; but I know for certain it would not be when the Karavan come to Windemere with their Recruiter and Trophy Trader Homin.

Thinking before acting is not a sign of weakness.

[aelvana]

The RL person playing Aelvana, who is the being that gets the enjoyment out of this game, much much prefers nature and spirits to technology when it comes to fantasy games that I play. Since I pay the bill, and play the game, I'm going to side with what I classically like best, and have the most fun with, as a RL being.

How's that for an answer? :P

[zumwalt]

Let me play the devils advocate here on this.
LoT, for what ever reason they saw fit, did not participate directly in the Karavan battle because they stated they were Kami aligned.

Well, that being said, they also did not attempt to help the Kami.

Karavan individuals (aka Tryker/Matis) can not be upset about LoT's choice to not assist although they were in BB just exping, since the creatures were in abundance there and easy pickings for the groups they had.

So in the aspect of roleplaying which LoT is preaching, they gained only nagative faction from the karavan players for there lack of assisting but being in the BB area.

Then again, they also did not help the Kami, which they are stating who there aligned with.

So in turn, they are trying to say that they are having there cake and eating it to.

No one knew there would be faction from this, from the first drop off the leader trackers to the time the GM said you have tried enough, you deserve a reward (which I was not there for that part, simply because I had to many connection issues, I was in battle as long as I physically could be assisting the Karavan)

Furthermore, regardless of circumstance, the only people who took a faction hit and got the title on the karavan side, is the people whom the GM's deemed worthy to get it, it was not forced upon everyone. (no I did not get it, like I said, I was not there at the final moments)

So, this being said, the argument of getting faction / title for LoT is mute because they could have opted out of that portion of the event.

Back to the point of there roleplaying there status in the world.

They are a rogue guild, not stating this is bad, all I am stating is that there choice for there position placed them by there own admition, on an unwritten list of people whom you can't count on in times of great need.

Regardless of outcome, when your country is under attack, you defend it.
If you choose to be the 'person to hold the peace sign', that is your choice, you do not have to fight, but in future endeavors, you also will not be likely to be counted on as a participant in the events that require individuals we as a community can trust will be there in battle to defent the home lands.

If you are going to stick to your Kami beliefs, as a guild, you should work with the Kami and help to defend there territory when it is under attack, which you did not do.

I think they call people who do this, nomads, you do your own thing, and claim sides to defend your position.

Don't worry about claiming sides for any defense on your actions, just take heart in your faith that what you do, you do for your sake and your guilds sake, not for your countries sake.

You must take a stand on this, and not try to sway either way if this is how you wish to roleplay your place in society.

[brackish]

Fact: a piece of information about circumstances that exist or events that have occurred

Zumwalt, you may want to learn that definition, and get them before you make these comments again. Do not call us out on this.

BTW,
How can you not expect there to be Fame associated with an event that has a Karavan Recruiter telling you what to do???

[zumwalt]

Aren't we a bit snippy, I try to defend your position and you bite at me, interesting indeed.

Definitions of Nomad on the Web:

An individual, often a member of a group, who migrates from place to place. In Central Asia, the nomadic way of life is often attributed to the ability to feed horses and livestock.
http://www.askasia.org/teachers/Instruc ... ources.htm


– a person who belongs to a group of people who have no permanent home, but wander from place to place searching for water, food, or grazing land.
http://www.wy.blm.gov/cultural/definitions.htm


(noun)- a person who travels and lives off the land
http://www.southlakems.org/ScientificRe ... ossary.htm


Human Resources Management and pay system
http://www.mrt.gov.au/annualreports/ar2001/glossary.htm


a member of a people who have no permanent home but move about according to the seasons
http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn

So you do fit the difinition, you claim to have a home in a land / country you are unwilling to defend because you are not of there alignment (aka: you claim to have home in Karavan Territory, and faile to defend Karavan because you on a whim claim Kami alignment)

So you fit:

A member of a people who have no permanent home but move about according to seasons.

You are not very savy to the ways of the game yet it seems, this is not the first major event to take place, this is actually the second (or possibly third) and the one that I am aware of (because I took part in it) did not offer fame or title, and it was to defend Matis lands from Kitin invasion (which we won)

So, I am calling you out on your interpretation of what your guild is doing.

Especially now that you blatently and openly attacked me without understanding what the post was about, your again, trying to redirect the subject that is the core underling nature of the position your guild is seeking.

[thexdane]

Well, to counterpoint here....

Zzei said: "Fame can always be undone, and it isn't a monumental task to achieve it. Just some perserverence. And you had no prior knowledge of what amount of fame impact would have been given."

Granted that they had no prior knowledge, but the idea that fame can be 'undone' is far more of an oportunistic stance than not taking part in the raid in my opinion. If you sincerely believe that defending your home against a malicious army, foiling their invasions and killing their leaders... following that up with returning to their camp the next day to rearm, reclothe and re-equip them for their next assault on your lands them is the 'better' stance then I will politely disagree with your assessment and with Zzei's.

i knew that fame could be undone, heck i knew that BEFORE i even started gaining fame with factions, but then again i did read the manual. sorry ignorance is no excuse for inaction.

as for fame being undone, let me give you yet another real world example

sadaam hussein was fighting the iraqi regime, whom the united states hated. the american supplied him with arms and trained his troops. soon after he got into power he turned against the united states. now look at him

i could also do the same thing with the taliban or al queda.

In addition, completing the raid makes you kill-on-site to those tribes. There will be no more fame missions to help them. The only way to undo that fame is to do pro-karavan missions and LoT have stated that they are Kami aligned. They are not neutral, they are Kami. The only way to participate in the Tryker raid is to put aside their beliefs which they did not do.

actually those tribes were kill on site before the event. so nothing has changed. we aren't question their alliance to a faction we are questioning their loyalty to their own homeland and atys.

Kaena from LoT was with me and Grear as we scouted out the potential invasion sites. In fact she died (with DP on) during that trip. So, Kaena stepped up and helped her Kami neighbours and got nothing for it. There were at least one or two other Trykers from the same guild with us during the fight. More could have come but as was pointed out, they lacked the knowledge that the Roots guardians would not be spawning. Even without the roots guards spawns, almost all other mobs were still in place. It may not have been possible for everyone to make the trip to Zora to assist in the Kami battle.

good for them in zora, they stepped up and defended atys in zora, as would i who is a karavan person if i was in zora and had no way to tryker. and may i also remind you it was the KARAVAN not the kami who were defending tryker

For those who did not want to be profiteers and pander to all sides of the fight, and who did not agree with the Karavan, they chose the options they felt served their lands best. Most people seem to be acting as though LoT is neutral completely, which they (as far as I know) are not. They are kami aligned.

well as i stated above it was the karavan and NOT the kami who defended tryker, so by that means the kami abandoned the trykers and aren't their allies nor willing to help tryker when in need, great allies the kami are for tryker

To continue with your Asian history lesson: The Japanese, seeing Christianity as a threat to their largely Buddhist and Shinto beliefs, crucified a group of Christians on a hill in (I believe) Satsuma. As a Japanese Christian, would you have helped them crucify your fellow believers for the betterment of your country (and done a 'whoops, bad me' to God and your church later) or would you have stuck to your beliefs and suffered ridicule and persecution from your countrymen? Country versus belief is a far different debate than country versus country.

(And, oh God, I do not want to start a religious debate here. I simply want to make a point on this)

Tin.

actually that story was illustrating the enemy of my enemy is my friend. you were just giving an example of religious persecution but it does have parallels to the discussion.

During the Event in question, I personally did not take part in the defense of Aedea Aqueous.
Two Reasons:
(1) A Kitin Invasion could not be confirmed.
(2) I was not convinced that by aiding the defense I would inadvertently receive Karavan Fame and impact the work and time that many guildees have spent.

it was never a kitin invasion nor billed as that. so i don't know why you'd think it's a kitin invasion. and fame can be changed it can go both up and down

I could have went to BB anyway and helped in any way i could with other members of my guild but i didnt. They went and did what they thought was right and I personally stand by them. They went with the information they had at the time.
A couple of our members went to Zorai to help their defenses. As a member that could not make that trek i stayed here in the lakelands debating whether to, as you say, "aid the enemy of my enemy."
You are right to say that Fame can be reversed, but because we were in new territory with trophies and the like, i had no information or prior knowledge to go from. I chose not to walk blindly into battle and help.

i knew a long time ago you could change the fame, then again i did notice the "you gained fame with <insert faction>" and "you lost fame with <insert faction>" each time i did a mission

the members of your guild who went to zora have honour and aren't cowards, the ones who did nothing ARE cowards, so yes you are included in that too

I will not quit.
I do expect to be judged by my actions or inaction.
I do plan on uniting with other Homins in the fight to send the Kitin back where the came from. You can rely on us for that purpose. That is what was agreed upon at the summit.

You cannot expect me to help you hunt down somthing that the Karavan is giving out Fame in exchange for trophies found in battle.
The only information I had was what was given here on the forums at the immediate time before the event and what the Homin and Karavan Recruiter told me in Windemere.

you and your guild are being judged. well since the kami weren't helping you i'll say that your loyalties are misplaced. and there was NOTHING about kitins in the event and you can't really pick your enemies, whomever is attacking you is your enemy plain and simple.

Aedea Aqueous is our home. I am not sure at what point I would have decided that Fame and my devotion to the Kami would have taken a backseat. Maybe when the creatures in question exited Bounty Beaches and entered Liberty Lakes; but I know for certain it would not be when the Karavan come to Windemere with their Recruiter and Trophy Trader Homin.

Thinking before acting is not a sign of weakness.

they were attacking you homeland and the kami did NOTHING, the karavan did step up and try and help you but you turned your back on them.

i agree that thinking before acting is not a sign of weakness, however doing nothing in the face of danger and an invading force is a sign of cowardace that you and a lot of your guildmates showed.

i hope your happy that MATIS protected your land and held back the force while you and your guild did NOTHING, next time there's an invasion i'm not sure that you will have as much protction as you did this time